mr. motley and mr. cooper, tell me where the line is where it's a good product and it's useful and it's safe, it's sound. i mean, there's always a transaction cost for the institution and if there's more risk then the institution has to charge commensurate with the risk. we see that in payday loans all of the time and i know folks without a payday loan they couldn't fix their car because a bank won't finance them. so, anyway, what are your thoughts about the line between the appropriate and sound versus the not so sound churning, where is that in define that for me. >> well, it's really not that easy to define because every situation is different. as mr. cooper said earlier, we try to look at all of our borrowers in terms of what's best for them and what's the best outcome for them for their particular situation and you have to take a lot of things into account and so i think that you want to have guardrails put in place on any program to avoid abuse and you want to have transparency so your point about

mr. motley, mr. cooper, tell me where the line is, where it's a good product, it's useful, it's safe, it's sound. there is always a transaction cost for the institution. if there's more risk, then the institution has to charge commensurate with the risk. we see that in payday loans all the time. i know folks couldn't fix their car and get a loan again because the bank won't finance them. so anyway, what are your thoughts about the line between the appropriate and sound the not so sound churning, where is that, define that for me? >> well, it's not that easy to define. i think as mr. cooper said earlier, we try to look at all of our borrowers in terms of what's best for them. mr. motley: what's the best outcome for them, for their particular situation. you have to take a lot of things into account. and so i think you want to have guardrails put in place on any program to avoid abuse and you want to have transparency so your point about proper disclosure is a good one. and having it done upfront is als

mr. motley would understand about being in the industry. but this isn't a private market, it is a government market. explain that difference between. the competition the free marketeers like me believe in and rely on as the best way to weed out the riffraff. what is different about it ski within this dynamic. the purchasing government insurance on that loan in this case and purchasing another form of insurance throughout the mortgage-backed securities so you have actually two taxpayers involvements. from the va program was a policy decision to that we would want to make sure veterans in the loan from americans have access to the loans in terms of what they otherwise would not have. a double layer to government market. hispanics in the absence of the robust market forces we have to play a greater role of the stakeholders. i'm curious is this an issue of safety and soundness. it was an unfair and deceptive practice. so let me ask are they disclosing the folks we are talking about. are they disclosing everything that they are going to do or ar