mr. ornato told you this story? >> he was. >> did mr.el correct or disagree with any part of this story from mr. ornato? >> mr. engel did not correct or disagree with any part of the story. >> did mr. engel or mr. ornato ever after that tell you that what mr. ornato had just said was untrue? >> neither mr. ornato nor mr. engel told me ever that it was untrue. >> and despite this altercation, this physical altercation during the ride back to the white house, president trump still demanded to go to the capitol. here's what kayleigh mcenany, the white house press secretary at the time, wrote in her personal notes and told the committee about president trump's desire to go to the capitol after returning to the white house. >> when you wrote potus wanted to walk to the capitol, was that based solely on what the president said during his speech or anything that he or anybody else said afterwards? so to the best of my >>so to the best of my recollection, i believe when we got back to the white house he said he wanted to physically walk with the

mr. ornato i went to have the discussion with mr. meadows, he was making a call, and i went to open the door to tell him, he immediately shut it. i don't know who he was speaking with. it wasn't something he regularly did, especially when i would go over to give him information. so i was a bit taken aback but i did not think much of it and thinking that i would be able to have the conversation with him a few moments later. >> and were you able to have that conversation a few moments later? >> probably about 20 to 25 minutes later. there was another period where he shut the door again and when he finally got out of the vehicle we had the conversation. at that point there was a backlog of information he should have been made aware of. >> so you opened the door to the control car and mr. meadows pulled it shut. >> that's correct. >> he did that two times? >> that's correct. >> and when you finally were able to give mr. meadows the information about the violence at the capitol, what was his reaction? >> he almost had a lack of reaction.

ornato or mr. old me it was untrue. >> the select committee has previously interviewed both ornato, a former secret service agent himself and engel and committee member stephanie murphy had this response to the disputed testimony. >> while the details are being disputed, the broader idea is not being disputed. mr. ornato did not have as clear of a memory from this period of time, and as i would say, m hutchinson did, if that's a fair assessment there, and we're always happy to have those who have recalled things to come back and talk to us. >> a spokesman for the secret service said the agency was not asked about hutchinson's testimony before tuesday's hearing and says it will make any member available to testify under oath. to be clear, the agency is not denying that the former president was angry about not being taken to the capitol, only that there was an altercation in the suv version of the beast. >>> mark meadows meanwhile is denying testimony that he asked for president trump for a pardon. in

mr. ornato? >> mr. engle did not correct or disagree with any part of the story. >> did mr. engle or ornato after that tell you that what mr. ornato said was untrue. >> neither told me ever that it was untrue. >> trump in part, denying some of the damning claims from hutchinson's testimony she made under oath. pamela brown is out front live on capitol hill. what more are you learning tonight. >> reporter: erin, i spoke to a capitol police officer who was here on january 6th and heard the hearing today, said he felt a sense of betrayal listening to cassidy hutchinson's testimony, relaying the warning signs chief of staff and mark meadows willfully ignored time and time again and while it was shocking to white house aides, one former aide of trump i spoke to said it was all 100% believable as well given how chaotic things were behind the scenes at the white house as trump tried to overturn the election results. >> as an american, i was disgusted. >> bombshell testimony from surprise witness cassidy hutchinson, a former top aide to white house chief of staff, mark meadows. >> th

mr. ornato what he just said was untrue? >> neither mr. ornato nor mr.me ever that it was untrue. >> absolutely unprecedented lurid, bizarre, shocking, i mean, we all turned into madeleine's trying to cover revelations like this. >> let's bring our colleague nichol wallace, host of deadline white house. nicole, i know that you can't be here on set with us tonight, but i'm desperate to talk with you about this. thank you for being here. >> i'm so glad to be here. look, you guys have covered all the things that had me, you know, picking my jaw up from the desk. but i think this quid you just played it's just so important and the conversations in questions we were just asking, which was he gonna do when he got there? i mean, rudy giuliani is having cassidy hutchinson lobby mark meadows to get into the capital answers a lot of questions about the second to the six, and a second he also calls brad raffensperger on the third, as we talked about last week. he temporarily installs mr. clark, his his attorney general. i think we have a whole new batch of question

mr. ornato who was former lead to the president. he's in the room as she's being told this story. the point is it really paints a damning picture of the president and you know, it's interesting, lester. we go through this and nothing shocks when it comes to the former president, but the idea that he tried to grab the wheel. this was clearly she is painting a picture of somebody who was very unhinged. i don't know what other word to use. based on her testimony, that is an unhinged actor. >> let's not forget, she doesn't describe, we hear the radio transmission of police as they're spotting people in the crowd at the ellipse with high powered weapons. as she tells it, the president gains knowledge of what's happening there. wants to press forward to set aside the magnatometers and let people in even after reports of ar-15s. >> i think this testimony is so important and that because one of the argument that is many republicans try to make that attempt to defend the former president, maybe not his personal actions, but this place was unprepared. we now have testimony that essentially,

mr. ornato told you this story? >> he was. >> did mr.gree with any part of the story from mr. ornato? >> mr. engel did not correct or disagree with any part of the story. >> did mr. engel or mr. ornato ever after that tell you that what mr. ornato had just said was untrue? >> neither mr. ornato nor mr. engel told me ever that it was untrue. >> and despite this altercation, this physical altercation, during the ride back to the white house, president trump still demanded to go to the capitol. here's what kayleigh mcenany, the white house press secretary at the time, wrote in her personal notes and told the committee about president trump's desire to go to the capitol after returning to the white house. >> when you wrote, potus wanted to walk to the capitol, was that based solely on what the president said during his speech? or anything that he or anybody else said afterwards? >> so, to the best of my recollection, i believe when we got back to the white house, he said he wanted to physically walk with the marchers and according to my note

mr. ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicle. >> reporter: it wasn't the first time trump had exploded in rage. hutchinson described seeing what happened a month earlier, after attorney general bill barr declared that there was no significant fraud in the election. >> miss hutchinson, how did the president react to hearing that news? >> i first noticed there was ketchup dripping down the wall, and there was a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. the valet had articulated that the president was extremely angry at the attorney general's a.p. interview, and had thrown his lunch against the wall. >> and ms. hutchinson, was this the only instance that you are aware of where the president threw dishes? >> it's not. there were several times throughout my tenure with the chief of staff that i was aware of him either flowing dishes or flipping the tablecloth, to let all the contents of the table go onto the floor and likely break or go everywhere. >> reporter: and on january 6th, even after he returned to the white house, trump still wanted to join the march to

mr. ornato had recounted this story to me he had motioned toward his clavicles >> reporter: hutchinson saying even before his rally mr. trump was aware of the potential for violence at the capitol when he was told some supporters were armed and would not go through security >> i overheard the president say something to the effect of "i don't care that they have weapons. they're not here to hurt me. take the effing mags away let my people in they can march to the capitol from here. >> reporter: all as security had spotted trump supporters carrying ar-15s. >> i've got three men walking down the street in fatigues while carrying ar-15s. copy at 14th and independence >> reporter: hutchinson said she first heard of plans for president trump to make an unannounced trip to the capitol from rudy giuliani days before january 6th, plans alarming then white house counsel pat cipollone. >> mr. cipollone said something to the effect of please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen >> rep

mr. ornato lingering outside the office.nce we made eye contact and quickly gave me to go into his office which was just across the hall from mine. when i went in, he shut the door, and i noticed robert engel the head of mr. trump security detail sitting in a chair. looking somewhat discombobulated, a little lost. i looked at tony, he had said did you effing hear what happened to the beast? i said no tony i just got back what happened? tony proceeded to tell me that when the president got in the beast, he was under the impression from mr. meadows, that the off-the-record movement to the capital was still possible. and likely to happen, and that bobby had more information. so once the president had gotten in the vehicle with body, he thought that they were going up to the capitol, and when bobby had relayed to him we are not, we don't have the assets to do it it's not secure or going back to the west wing. the president had very strong very angry response to that tony described him as being irate. the president said something

mr. ornato recounted the story, he motioned toward his cavcals. >> trevor: insane.eaching to take control of the car like an action movie, only he's the president and this is real life. you have to admit fighting your own secret service agent is genius on trump's part. he's hitting the one person who can't hit back. yeah, they can pump back but then they've got to jump in front of their own punch. take that -- rrrr! aaaaaaaah! ( applause ) ohhhhh! did you feel that one, rudy? ( laughter ) ( cheers and applause ) you know, this whole thing shows you how lazy trump is. the capitol is like two miles away. everyone else walked there, but trump was, like, okay, i could walk there, i could walk -- or i could try to steal a car from the sect service. which one is it? ( laughter ) not to victim blame, but this is on the secret service, all right? you had four years to trump-proof that vehicle. ( laughter ) you knew who you were dealing with. there should have been a toy steering wheel in the passenger seat the whole time. let him think he's driving and go back to the west w

mr. ornato did not have as clear memories from this period of time as i would say ms.s a fair assessment there, but we're always happy to have folks who have recalled things to come back and talk to us. >> cassidy hutchinson told her story under oath. isn't now the main question whether tony ornato is willing to lie under oath? do they not need to put tony ornato under oath? >> i don't necessarily think so. as speaking from a former prosecutor, it's clear ornato has credibility issues. whatever comes out of his mouth, if it corroborates what we've heard from cassidy hutchinson then perhaps it may have value. if it refutes that, there are a number of different reasons or things you can point to in terms of prosecuting that evidence that shows that he has credibility issues and consistency problems. we've heard from members of the committee that he could not recall certain events. now if he comes back and says i remember this, so on and so forth, as a prosecutor what i would be saying especially if it refutes the point it makes. didn't you earlier say you couldn't rememb

mr. ornato did not have as clear of memories from this period of time as i would say ms. hutchinson did, if that's a fair assessment there. >> a suggestion there from congresswoman murphy, there were many more "i do not recalls" from tony ornato than there were from cassidy hutchinson. now, republican committee member adam kinzinger tweeted, there seems to be a major thread here. tony ornato likes to lie. the question of whether or not he ihas allegiance to trump or the truth, might not have helped on newsmax. >> these are people, these are great people. these are great people. they've devoted their lives to it. and i they were embarrassed by about. >> tony ornato and bobby engle. >> i know them very well. they're sterling. and it was very nice they came to my defense. i thought it was incredible, because some whack job can say this stuff and get away with it? >> tony ornato, we should note, was not serving as a secret service agent during this period. he had been granted a waiver to suspend his time to serve in a political position, as trump's deputy white house chief of

mr. ornato, i went to tell mr. meadows. he informs a secured vehicle having a phone call.immediately shut the door. i don't know who he is speaking with. that is not something he regularly did. i was a bit taken aback but i didn't think much of it, and i thought i would be able to have the conversation with him a few moments later. >> were you able to have that conversation a few moments later? >> about 20 or 25 minutes later there was another period when he shut the door again and when he finally got out of the vehicle we had a conversation. there was a backlog of information that he should have been made aware of. >> so you opened the door to the control car and mr. meadows pulled it shut? >> that's correct. >> he did that two times? >> correct. >> when you were finally able to give mr. meadows the information about the violence at the capitol, what was his reaction? >> he almost had a lack of reaction. i remember he said something like how much longer does the president have in his speech. >> much about this was known or learned before the onset of the violence. early e

mr. ornato motioned to me, referred to his clavicles. >> reporter: denied telling hutchinson that he grabbed the steering wheel or agent. the secret service notified the select committee after hutchinson's testimony that the agents involved are prepared to testify under oath that the incident did not occur. the committee standing behind hutchinson's account while encouraging others with information to come forward. >> look, i believe cassidy hutchinson. i believe she's a smart, very capable, very honest individual. she has no incentive to make up something that isn't true. >> reporter: and the committee said evidence emerged of witness tampering. vice chair liz cheney presented several messages from witnesses saying they've been pressured from trump allies to say the right thing. cheney now said the committee is taking all of that very seriously and even indicated they're looking into possible next steps here, kate, that could include a possible criminal referral for witness tampering, so still a lot more to come here and we're expecting the next hearings to probably be starting the weekend

mr. ornato had recounted the story to me, he had motioned toward his clavicles. >> stephen: he went for theyou get into the secret service, you know you have to take one for the president, but you never expect to take one from the president. "thank you for your service. let's keep this part secret." the limo wasn't the only place the president got violent. hutchinson talked about the day bill barr went on the record saying there wasn't any fraud in the election. >> i noticed the door was propped open, and the valet was inside the dining room changing the tablecloth off of the dining room table. he motioned for me to come in and then pointed towards the front of the room near the fireplace mantel and the tv, where i first noticed there was ketchup dripping down the wall, and there's a shattered porcelain plate on the floor. the valet had articulated that the president was extremely angry at the attorney general's ap interview and had thrown his lunch against the wall. ( laughter ). >> stephen: i mean, her description is so detailed, i think you could go in and find where that ketchup stain w

mr. ornato told her that, and that mr. engel was present and didn't deny it.we'll see if they want to come in under oath, and deny that, fine, the real point is no one is denying that the former president wanted to go to the capitol, and lead this armed mob. and be there while they attacked the capitol. that's the point. and it's, no one can deny it. i mean that she actually heard the president himself talk about removing the effing mags, and that the armed supporters were not going to hurt him, that they can march from the ellipse to the capitol, is stunning and the most important revelation really i think of all of the things she testified to. >> one of the punch bowl news reported today, that hutchinson was one of the witnesses who was sent a message described by vice chair of the committee liz cheney, as potential witness tampering. now, on that issue, you said something tonight in another tv interview that i want to ask you about. you said, quote, in a prior hearing, we talked about the hundreds of millions of dollars that the former president raised, som

mr. ornato recounted this story to me, he motioned toward his clavicles. >> so officials say the secret service agents involved that she's talking about both engel and ornato are ready to testify under oath and they do dispute her account. josh campbell has more. josh, isn't it just so clear, the american people need to hear from them under oath if they're disputing this? >> that's right. there were several stunning revelations from this hearing yesterday, including this alleged incident inside the presidential suv as he was leaving the rally. as she testified there, she said she was later told by a man named tony ornato, then the white house deputy chief of staff, now a senior executive with the u.s. secret service, she says that ornato told her that this incident occurred. now, afterwards, an official with the secret service told me that tony ornato denies briefing her on this, telling her that this transpired. it is also worth pointing out that according to this official the lead secret service agent who was inside the vehicle denies that this incident ever occurred. now, we're told that the

mr. ornato did not have as clear of memories from this period of time as i would say ms. hutchinson did, if that is a fair assessment there. we are always happy to have folks who have recalled things to come back and talk to us. >> after cassidy hutchinson's stunning testimony, the secret service says its agents are also available to testify under oath. but there is no word yet on whether former white house deputy chief of staff, are not, oh -- the secret service agent in charge of trump's detail on january 6th will do that. we welcome back carol leonnig, investigative reporter for the washington post. she wrote the book on the u. s. secret service. and clint watts, army veteran, former fbi special agent, and a distinguished research fellow at the foreign research institute. carol, i want you to give us some background. who is robert engel, what do we need to know about the secret service during the trump presidency? >> great questions, and so concise as you so cleanly are. first off, i will say alicia, the thing that you really need to know, we all need to keep in mind a

mr. ornato did not have as clear of memories from this period of time as i would say miss hutchinson did. >> reporter: congressman adam kinzinger taking it a step further saying in a tweet, quote, there seems to be a major thread here. tony ornato likes to lie. meanwhile the committee issuing a subpoena to former white house counsel pat cipollone, a key figure members believe has a lot to share. >> there were quite a few things that he could tell the committee that would not be subject to privilege. and i think it's important. >> reporter: cipollone already signaling that he may be willing to sit for a trianscribed deposition. as for others fighting subpoenas, frustration is mounting from the lack of action from the department of justice. >> mark meadows and dan ska veen owe have refused to come and talk to congress. we have the power of subpoena similar to what a court has and the justice department has refused to indict them for that. so that's been a frustration. >> reporter: and wednesday night at the reagan library in california, cheney using the work of the committee to make a case

mr. ornato relayed the story to her. if the secret service wants to come in under oath and say that they didn't tell her that or what they told her wasn't true, that's fine. but it misses the main point, which is no one's denying that the president wanted to go up to the capitol where these -- this armed mob was attacking the congress and trying to overturn the election. that is -- that is the main point, shocking as the story about the limousine lurch was. the real legal import was that he wanted to go up there, and nobody is disputing that. >> previously had mr. engel or any other member of the detail testified before the committee, and had they been asked specifically about what happened on that morning? >> well, i don't have a photographic memory from the reading the transcripts. it's been a while now since i read his transcript or mr. engel's. but we didn't have all the information we have now. those interviews took place quite some time ago. so, we may need to tag up with them. >> but wouldn't they have testified -

mr. ornato told me the story he motioned towards his clavicles. >> hutchinson described the moment rioters were closing in on the capitol she said the white house counsel went straight to mark meadows urging action. >> and i remember pat saying to him something to the effect of the rioters have got to the capitol, mark. we need to go down and see the president now. and mark looked up at him and said he doesn't want to do anything, pat. and pat said something to the effect of, and very clearly said this to mark, something to the effect of, mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood is going to be on your effing hands. >> today hutchinson also revealed that rudy giuliani and her boss, the chief of staff, mark meadows, were among those who asked for a presidential pardon in the aftermath of january the 6th. >> did rudy giuliani ever suggest that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6th? >> he did. >> ms. hutchinson, did white house chief of staff mark meadows ever indicate that he was interested in receiving a presidential pard

mr. ornato had recanted this story to me he had motioned for his clavicles. >> jimmy: immediately the agentse like, "who the hell let him out of his car seat? [ laughter ] i mean, how did he reach the steering wheel?" always good when you need another secret service to protect the secret service you know what i'm saying [ laughter ] a little later, hutchinson recalled how trump reacted after attorney general bill barr said that there was no evidence of election fraud. watch this >> i left the office and went down to the dining room. i first noticed there was ketchup dripping down the wall and there's a shattered porcelain plate on the floor the president was extremely angry at the attorney general's "a.p." interview and had thrown his lunch against the wall [ laughter ] >> jimmy: knowing trump, he probably finished his big mac first then threw the plate [ laughter ] "hold up i'm furious. [ laughter ] that's right two of trump's favorite things coming together, ketchup and walls. [ laughter ] it's amazing well it turn's out melania's christmas tree -- yeah, you just got it now. okay, sorry. [

mr. ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles. >> seth: my favorite part is imagining what would have happened if trump had actually succeeded and gotten his hands on the wheel i mean, can you imagine him driving a car? i mean, we've seen him drive a golf cart, but could he handle a, you know, a steering wheel that doesn't come with a tiny pencil holder? i mean, remember the one time he sat in the driver's seat of a truck and handled the wheel like a fifth-grader in a bumper car [ laughter ] let's say he really did get his hands on the wheel and drove the car. what would that look like? "alright, hands at 10:00 and 2:00, adjust your mirrors. check your blind spots, turn signal on, and we crashed into a tree guys, you got to tell the cops a cat ran out and i swerved to save the cat i can't get another ticket or they're going to take my license away and mel already told me she won't drive me anywhere. you got to get my back, guys." we've said this a lot over the entirety of trump's political career, but this hearing really was shocking i genuinely did not th

and that ornato never told hutchinson those events occurred, but they don't deny mr. trump was furious and wanted to go to the capitol. the secret service says engel and ornato remain close to mr. trump. it says its agents are available to testify under oath also tonight, mark meadows is disputing hutchinson's account that he asked for a pardon meadows is declining to cooperate with the committee citing executive privilege. and former white house lawyer eric herschmann is challenging hutchinson's testimony that she wrote this note with wording from mr. trump to condemn the violence >> that's your handwriting, ms. hutchinson >> that's my handwriting. >> reporter: but herschmann's spokesman said herschmann wrot the note top republicans tonight are slamming hutchinson's testimony. >> it looks like one more day of salacious headlines. this is why pelosi set this up to keep going after trump not to get facts. >> reporter: but committee democrats are dismissing any criticism. >> nobody is challenging the central material facts of her testimony that donald trump and mark mead

mr. tony ornato had recounted the story to me, he motioned towards his clavicle's. >> joining us now, congressmember of the january six committee. and the lead impeachment manager for the first impeachment trial of donald trump, in the united states senate. congressman shift, do you have any other evidence about what happened in that car? >> i can't comment on other evidence or testimony before the committee. all i can say is that i found cassidy hutchinson to be a thoroughly credible witness. telling us what she saw, what she heard. she was very careful to differentiate when she was a participant in the conversation, or actions were related to her by others. she was careful to tell us what she didn't know. and as a former prosecutor, the meaning of those are all in a show of reliability, and credibility as a witness. i found her account to be very very credible. i also thought frankly. of all of her testimony what was most important and i found most shocking is that the presidents acknowledgment that -- or his understanding that these people end of the mob were armed, and when he was told the

senior white house staff — including mr meadows — with white house counsel lawyers, and with mr tony ornatoe white house deputy chief of staff. she also worked on a daily basis with members of the secret service who were posted in the white house. in short, ms hutchinson was in a position to know a great deal about the happenings in the trump white house. in about nine minutes�* time, cassidy hutchinson will resume her testimony. here was cassidy explaining the conversations she had with mark meadows before january 6th. i found mr meadows in his office on the couch, scrolling through his phone. i remember leaning against the doorway and saying, "is that an interesting conversation with rudy, mark? sounds like we're going to go to the capitol." —— "just had an interesting conversation with rudy, mark." he didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, "there's a lot going on, cass, but i don't know. things may get real, real bad on january 6th." when hearing rudy's take onjanuary 6th and mark's response, that was the first — that evening was the first moment that i rememb

mr. tony ornato who served as the chief of staff. daily basis with members of secret service posted in the white house. in short, miss hutchinson was in a position to know a great deal about happenings in the white house. >> committee also showed how physically close hutchinson was to all the actions in the west wing. her desk was right outside mark meadows' office. just down the hall from the oval office. benefit rhodes, a former national security official to president obama gave insight to the kind of access someone in hutchinson's role would have had. >> i really want to underscore this for your viewers, the role that cassidy hutchinson had, that person would know everything. okay. >> right. >> the aides to the chief of staff in the obama white house today -- here's why, first of all, physically, the west wing is an incredibly small place and there is one hallway that has the chief of staff's office in one end, the oval office in the middle and national security adviser's office at the other end. you hear what's going on. you hear

mr. or nat toe relayed to me. >> ornato in one phone conversation had called me and said make sure the chiefnows that they're getting closer to the capitol. they're having trouble stacking bodies. >> there were many discussions the morning of the 6th about the rhetoric of the speech that day. in my conversations with mr. herschmann he had relayed that we would be foolish to include language that had been included at the president's request. both mr. herschmann and white house counsel's office were urging the speech writers to not include that language for legal concerns and also for the optics of what it could portray the president wanting to do that day. >> when president trump left the ellipse stage at 1:10 the staff knew that rioters had invaded the inaugural stage and capitol police were calling for all available officers to respond. >> once the president had gotten into the vehicle with bobby, he thought that they were going up to the capitol and when bobby had relayed to him we're not, we don't have the assets to do t it's not secure, we're going back to the west wing, the president ha