mr. schweickhardt will be written into the record. we will proceed to questioning and i will recognize myself for five minutes. ok. ms. overmann, good morning, again. thank you again for being here. can you think of a multi-billion dollar i.t. project that a federal agency has ever completed on time and on budget or completed at all? >> if this is going to be a question and i will not say i did comprehensive research in the federal agencies, but i did find a successful project or two. and it's interesting because i think it reinforces the points that you made in your opening remarks. it was a cloud migration called the defense. it's an $8.9 billion contract to migrate securely to the cloud. i think the reason that this reinforces what we're talking about is twofold. one is cloud infrastructure is really functionally infrastructure. it is something that you can acquire and deploy. it is not something that is aimed at meeting end user needs. so that has been successful and it was interesting because the way they rolled that out starting

mr. schweickhardt, can you think of one? >> i could not, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. this harris, what is it about the i.t. megaprojects that makes them so risky and prone to failure? >> when you take that waterfall monolithic approach, you are designing and developing the system and when you deploy five to seven years out, that is when you realize it is not going to meet the mission need. you have already sunk in at that point hundreds of millions and possibly billions of dollars and you are just set up to fail. it is just too much risk for these agencies to take on to go with that kind of project. >> very good. ms. overmann, you have been an out of -- advocate for a product model approach that makes agencies responsible for the outcome. what are some examples of the product model and the project model so the public can understand the difference of what we are talking about? >> absolutely. i do think the examples you provided of some of these six v.a. systems are very good examples of the challenges with that approach. i am going to give a couple of positive examples