mr. shilman was appointed by president bush. he's a democrat. >> well, -- he admitted so. >> appointed by president bush. you started out asking about lois lerner. if she didn't take the fifth, her lawyer should be convicted for malpractice. she's under investigation in a criminal probe so she had to take the fifth. she is a bit of a mystery woman. she blew the whistle on this, then she stopped it. then she is the one who brought it to public light at the instruction -- at the hearing -- >> can we please move on? >> i want to finish what i'm saying. >> steven miller, the former acting commissioner says he instructed her to go into question thinking he could get ahead of the story. he said it wasn't the best way to get the story out. >> i want to know what did the president know? did connie tell the president? >> no evidence. >> who used to be on this program by the way? >> who is this new chief of staff? >> dennis income done that. did dennis tell him? >> no. the president didn't know. >> do you believe that? >> i do believe tha