mr. shulman testified -- may 30 last year? >> yes, sir. >> you are familiar with the fact mr. shulman testified in front of the ways and means committee in march of last year. -- he was asked, can you give us assurance the iressa is is not targeting clinical groups? he said, we pride ourselves on being nonpolitical and nonpartisan. he gave assurances. usually when you give assurances there is some basis for assurances. were you part of the basis for assurances mr. shulman gave the ways and means committee in march of 2012? >> no, sir. >> you did not have any conversation with mr. shulman before he testified? >> no, sir. >> in the meeting that took place on may 30, the meeting highlighted on the timeline, when you learn the targeting was taking place, what was the reaction in that meeting? , we have to do something here? we have to correct the met -- record? what was the reaction when the three top people at the irs learned that this was going on? might, the treasury inspector general comes in once a month to meet with -- >> cut to the chase. what was the reaction? you find out

mr. shulman and two others. on june 4th you went off -- >> ms.ucker, your testimony does not agree with that testimony. who is right? >> when you ask me the earlier question, you asked me without -- was i present at the briefing that mr. george give the internal revenue service. i recall being at that briefing. >> what your testimony said, this was a normal briefing talking about not it. this was obviously results of which she said it was just talking about going -- >> sir, if i could, they come into internal revenue service monthly. mr. george -- and we will be glad to try and produce this. mr. george priest the internal revenue service on multiple topics at each one of those meetings. to the best of my recollection his discussion of their investigation was only one of the topics that i recollect from that briefing. let me also be clear, when he communicated to the internal revenue service, to the best of my recollection about concerns with the list and that terms that he was talking about, it was then the agency's response as the investigation

mr. shulman was the only other one. so we are just beginning this investigation. we are just starting this. it's not going to be closed down. >> with the gentleman wrap-up? >> finally mr. hall you sought counsel and advice from above and you never got it down below and finally what happened? did you step aside or seek another assignment? >> the gentleman may answer briefly. his time has expired. >> were you asking me? >> i'm trying to get back -- not getting answers the frustrations the experience. >> do you understand the question? >> we are out of time. >> yes i do get transferred out of there. >> at your request. >> yes i did. >> we now go to the gentleman from massachusetts. >> thank you mr. chairman and i think the ranking member and no witnesses were coming before the committee and trying to help us with our work. i would like to try to reset this if i could. it seems we are getting into a debate about whether or not there was a failure by the irs to enhance scrutiny for tea party groups, if they did the same thing for progressive groups and i just want to po

mr. shulman, do you take responsibility for this? he said for the detailed preparation of this list, no, i do not. and she just said in almost this very moving way, she said, mr. shulman, i've got to tell you we have 25-year-old buck sergeants in afghanistan who understand that when their men and women mess up, they are responsible. so the idea that we can just absent ourselves as senior government leaders from what happens beneath us is not something that we as americans can accept. that's the situation where we've got to. what's going to happen found? the president put danny werfel in. i have high regard and confidence in danny. he worked for me when i was at the office of management and budget before i went over to the irs. he's a straight shooter. the challenge, he's got a couple big challenges. one, it's a big place to learn and operate through. two, i talked about this generational change at the service. the people around him are rolling off and having -- this is not a time where people enjoy working for the irs, i can tell you

mr. shulman was the only other one? we are just beginning this investigation. are just starting this. it is not going to be closed down. >> with the gentleman wrap up? >> yes. mr., you sought advice from above and that did not come. finally, what happened? did you step aside or seek another assignment? >> the gentleman may ask -- answer briefly. me, sir?u asking >> i was trying to get back to her not getting answers, the --stration she experienced >> do you understand the question? >> sir, yes, i do get transferred out of their. >> at your request? yes. >> mr. lynch. >> thank you. i think the ranking member and the witnesses for coming before the committee and trying to help us with our work. i would like to try to reset this if i could. it seems you're getting into a debate about whether or not it was fair for the irs to add enhanced scrutiny for tea party groups. if they did the same thing for progressive groups. i just want to point out when the inspector general came before the committee, mr. george, he indicated there were three possible occasions of u.s. citizens that were subjec

mr. wilke did. hang on a second and i want to know what doug shulman did. they were in the white white. so what if they had a meeting. janet reno called for a special prosecutor for white water and nixon allowed a special prosecutor for waterge. and so why doesn't the president allow a special prosecutor? >> bottom line, there is a lot of information we need to get to and we need that to come out in the open testimony particular he like mr. wilkes. >> we need a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of this. the justice department will not do it. congress will go tank because of the partisan in the house. we need somebody in a real team to get to the bottom of this. there is too much. 200 organizations get targeted. thatoesn't happen from a few rogue agents. david, those 12 demoatic senators wrote letters. who handled those and how did they respond? >> a lot more questions than answers. and coming up next. >> the law is implemented as it currently stands when we hire somebody new we'll let them know they are part- time and not eligible for the health insurance benefit. >> the president

mr. werfel. for the purposes of preparing your report, did you speak to former commissioner doug shulman? >> i did not. >> with did you speak to former acting commissioner steve miller? >> can i did not. >> and did you talk with joseph grant, the former deputy commissioner for tege? >> no, i did not. >> did you talk with chief counsel william wilkens? >> yes. >> what were the basic summaries of those conversations? >> i, as a first matter, there were three things i set out to do which are in the report. first, understand where the wrongdoing was so i can hold people accountable. second, understand where the management failures and process mistakes are in the exempt organizations unit so we can fix them. and, third, a broader understanding of irs risks and operations. and i spoke to many people within the irs. in fact, my whole senior leadership team engaged in an ongoing series of discussions, and bill well kins is one of -- wilkins is one of the senior leaders. >> did you talk to the deputy commissioner? >> i have spoken to sarah, yes. >> for the purposes of preparing the report, did you

shulman, you said no. former acting irs commissioner mr. miller, you said no. and then sarah hauling, you said yes. who is she? >> sarah hauling runs the affordable care act operations within the irs, and i speak to her on an ongoing basis as part of my responsibly to engage with my senior leadership team on the ongoing operations of the irs. >> what was her role during this period of time a tax-exempt -- >> that's a good question and one that we're looking at and i will do my best to explain it right now. ms. ingram was the commission of a tax-exempt government entitiey organization leading into when these events occurred. so the ig report starts to service issues in and around early, say march 2010, is when this fact pattern begins on the ig timeline. it's my understanding that she served as the commissioner of tax-exempt government exempt organizations which is a level above the exempt organizations, and that org chart is in my report. she served in a capacity until somewhere around the spring or summer of 2010. >> so there was an overlap the? >> there was an overlap. at the time she moved over

mr. wilkins doing at the white house just before the guidelines on how to target organizations came out? >> brian: how this? on april 24, doug shulmanh the chief of staff, who by the way, the former chief of staff, jeff sites, who is still in south africa on vacation. he would have a lot to say. they meet for 8 1/2 hours. the next day, april 25 and after that they give out guidelines for analyzing and green lighting or red lighting or putting into the delay of game category all those 501 c 3 organizations that might have tea party affiliations. the next day in comes william will conditions convince who -- wilkins who met with the president and put additional comments on the draft for guidance. it all goes into play the 24 and 25th of april where these two head, showman and wilkins go into the white house. >> gretchen: yet the white house is telling reporters asking questions that those two gentlemen were there not to discuss the targeting of tea party. >> brian: they were there for the easter egg roll. >> gretchen: you remember that answer from doug shulman. he had been to the white house for countless times and he said to go to the