mr. stegman: i hope people really reflect on a comment. mr. kakamanu: i hope it doesn't get lost in this conversation, which is about the fact that deflecting commodification is one way to think about helping a customer. this is a much larger issue and question an opportunity for us. people can aspire to pay their loan. people are not -- the counseling and a lot of the other work ed talked about, there is the opportunity to change the dynamic. there are too many people who are not in homes today that should be in homes. i wanted to sort of knowledge ed's comment and hope we reflect on that. mr. demarco: one observation. this is been a very government-regulated environment in the last eight years. there is still value to market and market incentives of credit investors being able to help identify deficiencies, getting to the question, given the answer to the question about what are these costs. having a competitive market certainly can also be part of this future in creating a better force. faith: michael, any last words? mr. stegman: following

mr. stegman: i appreciate the way you raise the fha point -- mr. demarco: that is really important. if you know what it is and you can work with it, that really has to be addressed. too nuanced a point, we have always priced for the risk of the borrower being a potential for higher cost servicing. the discussion is focused on minimum servicing fees. that is not the whole story. determinenators can the kind of access io they want to factor in additional cost of higher risk loans. we have to be careful if you get three things and you can only have two of them, which ones do you want? be extendingo leveraged credit with volatile incomes or difficulty handling credit, there will be a real regime about dealing with it to reduce costs like this, then you have to allowed something in there for those costs to be accounted for and priced. perhaps rather than this sort of being the traditional tug-of-war on this issue we can try to be more thoughtful about extending credit to low and moderate income housing. folks with a riskier borrower using mortgage products, financial counseling, and othe