let me go to mr. useem. you make some valid points. you indicate we are more astute and i want to ask this question about the nation of islam. do you know what the nation of islam is? do you view them as promoting in current twenty-first century the undermining of this nation? can you tell us what the nation of islam is? >> the nation of islam is a religious group that practices the muslim religion. >> they recruit predominately in the black community. >> that is correct. >> are there underpinnings to your knowledge about improving lives and trying to straighten out? is that your assessment? >> that is correct. >> i don't want to put words in your mouth. that is the underpinning whether or not you agree or not. >> can i add a point? >> if you can quickly. >> prisons -- >> and you defend your position about the oversight, intensity of oversight in prisons that have bought massive radicalization going on. can you defend your proposition? can you defend it now? [talking over each other] >> extensive oversight in prisons today that are lef

mr. useem, you made a comment that the profile is different. how? >> different in education, different in poverty. the tears seemed to be from better educated backgrounds and criminals have very, tend to be very low education. the relevance of that is whether or not the the act and the self interest. to become a terrorist one has to have a lot of goals and that comes with education. >> there's a lot of guys that are strapping bombs on the backs all around the world walking into places because they have come under the influence of somebody who's charismatic or otherwise. you think those people are well educated? you to? >> yes. there's very strong evidence. [talking over each other] >> i think that's correct. >> the gentleman's time has expired the gentleman from illinois, mr. david is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to thank the witnesses for appearing in being here with us. mr. useem, i'm not proud of it, but i have one of the largest single site incarceration p

mr. useem, am i pronouncing that correctly? i have a couple of questions because of -- i applaud you and your study. i know how difficult it is to go into prisons and question people . i'm a former district attorney, i'm a former u.s. attorney, i've been in state prince, i've been in federal prison investigating cases interviewing people so i know how that operation works but have you utilized any studies involving conversion of nonmuslim gang members to jihadists? >> no, i don't know of any such studies. >> do you discern the difference between the mission of gang members and jihadists which is most dangerous? which one is most dangerous to the overall security of the united states? >> jihadists are mott most dangerous. the point was made earlier that gangs are out for themselves, they're out to promote their self-interest. jihadists are out to damage the country. and in some ways that explains why jihadist radicalization in prison is very difficult because they tend to come from individuals who are mainly guided by their self

mr. downing. the next witness is a professor bert useem. he worked for the university of mexico. he has published several books and papers. you are now recognized for your testimony. >> good morning. i think the committee for its attention to this very important matter. the crux of my testimony is that prisons have not served as a major source of jihad radicalization. 3 that support this conclusion. first, u.s. presence now confined 1.6 million people. each year 730,000 inmates are released. second, from 9/11 to the first half of 2011, 178 muslim americans have committed acts of terrorism or were prosecuted for terrorism related offenses. third, 12 of these 178 bacases, there is some evidence for radicalization behind bars. putting these three facts together, if prisons were a major cause of jihadist radicalization, we would expect to see a lot of it. but we do not. why not? my research has identified seven factors that have inhibited present radicalization. first, over the last 30 years, u.s. prisons have been able to restore order and improved inmate safety. for example, prison