mr. wilkins did not testify this week. i assume he will be given that opportunity at some -- what do you make of this? >> well, i think that's the next place where this investigation has to go. what i make of it is what we are hearing this week is the exact opposite of the story that the government told us in may when this first came out that it was the rogue employees and it was low level and it was -- bureaucratic bungling. this is going right to the top and what with mr. hull made clear is that -- >> top of the irs. >> top of the irs. these reviews, additional scrutiny only of these -- tea party and conservative groups was unprecedented. had was -- has been in the irs for decades and never seen anything like it. and it is coming from the chief counsel's office and so -- i think mr. wilkins is the next one to get under oath if he lawyers up and pleads the fifth as miss lerner did, perhaps others in that office can tell us what happened. there's also a lot of document requests from the hill that may shed light on it. >> t

mr. wilkins himself? there doesn't seem to be any evidence -- yet that mr. ns was part of this -- or was there? >> well, we don't know. mr. issa, myself, the committee, we want to proach this and -- to approach this and get facts. we have seen that one of the star witnesses and one of the reasons we are trying to find this out, it is person at the center of this, lois lerner came in and first, again, have you to go back to where she tried to close this down, use the media to pooh-pooh what was going on. mr. hull and others -- the inspector general said, i'm sorry, she was the one that admitted that the irs was targeting conservatives. she has taken the fifth. we may call her back. she may... very well be held to answer responsibly. in the meantime have you to get to the people that she pointed to, which we have done. now we are getting people pointing to higher up in the cha¡Ñ of command with the irs. but have you to be thorough, do a good job and be responsible in the process. >> eric: you know, it seems this is step by step. first they say, no targeting and

mr. wilkins is the next one under oath.e lawyers up and pleads the fifth perhaps others in the office can tell us what happened. there are a lot of document requests. >> and tea party groups are still not getting fair treatment by the irs, even now? >> by the way, let me say one thing thing about the hearings. amazing thing was the democrats and the way they roughed up the witnesses and roughed up the inspector general. this was almost unprecedented. the democrats originally said we want to get to the bottom of this. it became very clear that they treated this as kind of a partisan witch hunt beating up the inspector general. they don't want to transparency here. they want to sweep it under the rug. the issue by groups that were unfairly treated by the irs, they have gotten letters from the irs, well, we will give your tax exempt status but you will have to live under different rules. i talked to lot of heads of tea party organizations, this is blatantly unfair. why are we being held to a stricter standard than liberal grou

mr. wilkins came to me. and at one point, i said to roy wilkins, i said "mr. wilkins this speech represent the young people in the student nonviolent coordinating committee and all of the people, indigenous people in alabama and georgia and mississippi and all across the south." and he sort of walked away, sort of backed off. then, mr. randolph and dr. king came back and said -- dr. king said, "john, this doesn't sound like you." and mr. randolph said something like, "we come this far together, john. let's stay together." and i couldn't say no to a. philip randolph. i couldn't say no to martin luther king, jr. >> so you agreed to some changes. you took out the words criticizing the president's bill as being too little, and too late. you took out the call to march through the heart of dixie the way sherman did. you took out the question asking which side is the federal government on. you took out the reference to some political leaders as "cheap," and you took them out, you're saying, because you were on the team, and because you honored a. philip randolph and m

mr. wilkins. that office looked at the two tea party test cases -- when they were recommended that they actually approve one and deny the other, they said no, we are going to take the cases from a 48-year veteran of the irs, the expert in this area, we are going to take them from him and give it to someone who had been at the irs 4 months. when theyda they dthey never made a decision. that's how they really harassed the tea party groups, they never gave them a resolution, we know that that went to the chief counsel's office. you mentioned the chief counsel. william wilkins is a political appointee. is it plausible that he didn't share to the white house or someone in the obama administration at some point about this specific issue? >> yeah. we don't know. mr. wilkins will be coming in for his disposition. that's where you find out, when they near, under oath and we get the chance to ask them questions for a long period of time, that's when you find out these things and others in that chief counsel

mr. wilkins was in a meeting with 13 people and the president. is that true?s anybody have any reckoning of what went on there? >> he was in a meeting with 12 other people, including him and the president. and two days later his office did provide guidance on tea party applications. however, we don't know whether he personally was involved in drafting that guidance or was present at the meeting. >> seems pretty coincidental. wait, we know the president was at the meeting. >> we know the president was at the meeting. >> but wilkins comes out and coincidentally starts changing guidance on the conservative groups. >> his office two days later was involved in providing guidance, changing on tea party applications. we don't know whether he personally was involved. it's important to say that the irs has denied that he was involved in processing 501(c)(4) applications, the tea party applications. >> the irs denies a lot of things, they deny in front of committees, they deny under oath for god sakes. >> his office, consisting of 1,600 lawyers was certainly involved. t

mr. wilkins?ncidentally, out of cure os tirks he's a political appointee, he and his former law firm represented reverend jeremiah wright's church in a similar tax controversy, right? >> for free. >> for free. >> i might add. >> yes. if you want to take a look at the chief counsel, this is what i'd like. if this -- i'm appalled that lawyers might be involved and for some reason and maybe i'm wrong, i think they have a higher duty. i don't know if the bar counsel takes a look at it and takes a look at what the lawyers are up to. if they're up to no good. i don't know how you feel. bar counsel could have influence. all right. what is the suggestion that the chief counsel's office did or might have done? >> well, the chief counsel -- keep in mind, we've had political activity in this country since before it was founded and the numeric code hasn't changed. 50% means what 50% has always meant. why the additional scrutiny in 2010? there's nothing novel about these legal issues. there's nothing extraordi

mr. wilkins said, on behalf of the case absolutely free pro bono.rian: this guy has an expertise in 501-c-4 and c-3 applications. yet people testified he was out of the loop on this. you have to be skeptical that he was out of the loop on this if this is his area of expertise. there seems to be a problem in when it comes to hold be up applications for conservative groups. >>gretchen: another fact discussed in detail was what was detrimental to these groups was not they were automatically denied. had they been denied, they would have gone away, but they were put in this purgatory, they were put on hold, which made them have to spend extra money, extra dollars, extra time, get more frustrated. a lot of them quit. then you ask why is that important? it's important because we had an election. could it be that when we were discussing on this couch the tea party doesn't have that much power anymore, it has kind of gone away, could it be that's one of the reasons why some 300 groups were not allowed to establish themselves and therefore the movement kind o

mr. wilkins. now, what exactly was mr. st before the guidelines on how to target organizations came out? >> brian: how this? on april 24, doug shulman goes to the white house, meets with the chief of staff, who by the way, the former chief of staff, jeff sites, who is still in south africa on vacation. he would have a lot to say. they meet for 8 1/2 hours. the next day, april 25 and after that they give out guidelines for analyzing and green lighting or red lighting or putting into the delay of game category all those 501 c 3 organizations that might have tea party affiliations. the next day in comes william will conditions convince who -- wilkins who met with the president and put additional comments on the draft for guidance. it all goes into play the 24 and 25th of april where these two head, showman and wilkins go into the white house. >> gretchen: yet the white house is telling reporters asking questions that those two gentlemen were there not to discuss the targeting of tea party. >> brian: they were there for the eas

mr. wilkins he was there two days before because it sure doesn't look good. >> it looks very bad. it is circumstantialal at this point but same time this was the one political appointee at the time at irs that was appointed by obama. this was a guy who was a major water carrier, probono to defend president obama when the irs looked into reverend write's church during the campaign this guy has a, he is a political operative. doesn't mean he is guilty of anything but it doesn't look good. martha: it is interesting because we're watching fingers get pointed higher and higher up the food chain. as you say darrell issa is doing this investigation in a methodical way. everyone wants to know if this leads to the white house and this is one step move to figure this out. let's move on to the christine o'donnell tax records because this is a fascinating story to me. delaware says we looked into her based on one newspaper article and we would like to help you out to explain why we did all that but those records seem to have disappeared. sounds funny. >> sound funny in this day and age when t

mr. wilkins in front of your committee. myave many geriatrics in practice, and they are worried about the affordable care act. the democrats say the republicans never came up with an alternative. senator tom coburn had terrific some ideas watched that senator harkin had. all of the democrats, one senator tom coburn proposed it, the democrats were looking at it. there are some ideas out there. i wish you good luck on the irs, and i hope you do not let it fall off. of tranquility wants to know this -- what impact does it have on groups if you delay 501 status? could it affect in photo voters were delay elections? guest: absolutely. the major question is why do we not find out about this a year ago, and why was investigation delayed, because we are two so, yes, i do think the delaying of a small group rather than large group, that prevents them from taking any action. you think of a community group trying to raise money for a softball field in the health- and 5013c.m youcannot do that until have an irs letter stating you can b

mr. wilkins, who was the one who wanted to see these particular applications from tea parties.ounsel in washington. today could we find out that there has been a link between that person and the white house? that is the $25 million question today. >> steve: so when we heard this story in the beginning, oh, it's just some rogue low level people, rogue agents in cincinnati, some of those agents in cincinnati are going, wait a minute. we're not rogue. we were just following orders. in fact, elizabeth hofacre is one of the agents in cincinnati. she will be testifying. carter hull will be testifying. what's different about what they're going to say than lois lerner is reportedly mr. hull is not going to take the fifth. he's going to name names and tell people what happened. >> brian: according to the depositions, they're indicating they're going to name names and show that lois lerner slow rolling the tax exempt status of conservative groups. you say what's the big deal? we had an election. we had an election and the most organized groups that sprung up organically turned the midter

mr. william wilkins, apparently nobody's talked to him. he was involved in it. >> as carter hall testified about ten days ago, there was a meeting on april 24, they have the, in the eisenhower executive office building which is part of the white house complex. that meeting lasted for over eight hours and it was attended by doug shulman and two other i.r.s. stafrs. the very next day william wilkins, political appointee of the obama administration issued new guidelines for how these conservative groups were to be treated. >>steve: i'm sure that is a coincidence. i tell you what, kevin, if it is a phony scandal, why are all these officials taking the fifth? >> taking the fifth for something that is phony. it is a contradiction of how this started. it was lois lerner's orchestrated apology which the administration believed they were going to sneak through on a friday afternoon, that everyone would forget by monday, this is how it started. now the administration is saying it's phony? >>steve: you for one are not buying it. and i'm sure a lot of