mr. wilkins, he said it was you. he said employees who have been responsible for collecting and producing documents, we asked him who was responsible for that process. he said it is tom kean and jennifer. then he said miss o'connor and he said yes. he identified you as the chief person. in the six months you're there, this is a huge story. you got the key player in this who took the fifth. it's in the news every day. at that time, you're delling us you didn't have any inclination that a bunch of lois lerner's e-mails were lost? >> i did not know they were missing and uncoverable and a laptop crash had caused that. >> when you did learn, what was the date that the white house counsel's office learned? >> mr. koskinen told us he felt he had no duty to disclose. he knew in march there were lost e-mails. he didn't tell us at the end of march. someone at the white house learned in april. we didn't learn till june when they sent us a letter a week and a half ago. when did the white house counsel's office learn that there w