"i am told mr. wood is effectively brain dead and this reaction you're seeing, this is the type of reaction one gets if they're taken off life support. the brain stem is working but there's no brain activity." the judge responds "well, tell me briefly how it is. is he? do you have leads or probes necessary to determine his brain state?" "repeat that, judge, i'm sorry?" "do you have leads or probes connected to determine his brain state?" "i don't believe there are leads connected on the head, but i'm not sure, but i know the individual who told me this information is medically trained." the judge says "what i'm wondering is what the basis is for the conclusion that he's effectively brain dead." the lawyer responds "it's because of the medical training and all i know is that's the information that was given to me. i can certainly find that out." the judge says "well, if there are not monitors connected to him, if it's a visual observation, that's very concerning as not being adequate. tell me, what is the

thank you. >> thank you, mr. woods. thanks for being here. >> i have a question. >> vice president caen. >> if this property is not developed, what are your discussions for the property? >> mr. woods. >> i said what would your

mr. wood, within three or four minutes drifted off, eyes closed. the doctor came in and looked and said yes, he is sedated. a few minutes after that, he started gasping. several people described it as looking like a fish out of water. it was sort of a spasm that would go from his mouth to his chest to his stomach. we watched this and it went on for more than an hour and a half. every now and then, the doctor would come in and check on the level of consciousness of wood, and he would turn the microphone on and at that point we could hear this sucking noise. it was a snoring, it was a very, very loud sucking noise. essentially what we watched, i think, was death by apnea. >> when you say turn the microphone on, that means the microphone wasn't on for most of the time? >> the microphone was not. it was on when they were inserting the lines, which is shown to you on video. then it's on when he said his last words, then it was turned off. so the doctor would come in. this is abnormal. normally in the protocol, the doctor comes in and checks and says tha

the prolonged and very gruesome execution of mr. wood is certainly the predictable consequence of an experimental execution procedure that was shrouded in secrecy. despite repeated requests from mr. wood's lawyers, the arizona department of corrections refused to disclose per nent information about the drugs -- pertinent information about the drugs. >> like with who? >> they informed the lawyers what the drugs would be. that it would be a combination of drugs. but they refused to turn over information about the manufacturer, the sourcing, the expiration date, the lot number, the type of information that would allow both the lawyers but more importantly the courts to ensure that the drugs were what they purported to be, were potent and were pure and worked like they were intended. >> this cocktail has been used before, in other areas, like ohio. >> this was used once before, as was mentioned in the report earlier, the horribly boxed execution of dennis mcguire in ohio in january. >> so what do you think should happen now? >> i think one t

thank you, thank you mr. woods. >> thank you. now going to recognize the gentleman from virginia, mr. griffith, for five minutes. >> thank you so much for being here today. i appreciate it very much. the report indicates that cms did not engage in effective planning or oversight. what do you recommend they do in the future to make sure they have proper planning jeempb sight? because they apparently dropped the ball. >> they have the tools in place. >> okay. >> one of the primary tools is a strategic plan, an acquisition strategy is what it's called. there's actually a template in the hhs regulations for each of the areas that needs to be addressed, and fundamentally, it's a tool designed to identify the risks that the agency is undertaking and to be able to come up with a plan to be able to mitigate those risks, but they did not follow it. so the tools are there, they did not use the tools that were there. >> i want to ask you an open-ended question because i think it's important that we get this perspective from time to time, and

. >> thank you, mr. woods. thanks for being here. >> i have a question. >> vice president caen. >> if this property is not developed, what are your discussions for the property? >> mr. woods. >> i said what would your suggestions be for the property? do you want to still sit there and the old -- >> no. i would say if any property in the city and county of san francisco is too valuable to sit, clean it up. clean it up to a point where it's residential conditions and residential status and where people can live and live safe and if you have to repair any lines that you bury in a trench to service that area, then i would say then you don't have to worry about the community being exposed to repairs of a line that needs to be repaired because one thing that does happen, we run into repairs on sites whether we like it or not, whether it's new sites or old sites, eventually something will go wrong, so if the whole entire thing is to clean up the residential standard then you won't have to deal with that. can i - >> ge

. >> well, after mr. woodave his last words, the chemicals began to flow and his eyes closed and his breathing appeared to stop and about five minutes into the process a medical team member came in and did a consciousness check and said that mr. wood was sedated. about five minutes after that, his lips began to move and he exhaled and began gasping for air. and that gasping went on for an hour and 40 minutes. >> your description stands in contrast to a statement that was released by the arizona department of corrections and i want to read you some of what the director, charles ryan, says. and he says "once the inmate was sedated, other than snore rouse respiration or snoring, he did not grimace or make any further movement and throughout this execution i conferred and collaborated wi collabora collaborate with our team members and was assured the inmate was comatose and never in pain or distress." do you agree with that? >> well, we -- no one knows whether mr. wood experienced pain. a medical doctor can't dete

it goes on to say, in its rush to put mr. wood to death in secret, they ignored the dire and cleared warnings from the botched executions of oklahoma and ohio. it's time for arizona and the other states using lethal injection to admit that this experiment with unreliable drugs is a failure. start with -- explain how this was a violation of the fourth and the eighth amendments. >> it was a violation of the first amendment and the eighth amendment because we as the public are entitled to know whether or not an execution is likely to go as planned or unfortunately, is likely to be what happened here, another botched. that's one of the real tragedies here about this horrifying execution. was not only did it go so long, but it was forlorned. it is predicted that this risk could happen. so that really goes to our first amendment. the fact that we as a public have the right to know information and that the states, including the state of arizona, are hiding that information from us. the eighth amendment violation, that's the one that belo

mr. wood's case, obviously he has died after this long, long process. tonight they're ordering an immediate blood draw before 8:00 p.m. local time tonight. from six different positions in the man's body, they're also ordering the medical examiner to take tissues from his brain, liver and muscles. what is this preservation of evidence about, and what will this information be used for? >> well, we will have experts review the results of those tests. but, you know, we hope that the pima county medical examiner complies with the court order. we're getting word that the medical examiner says he doesn't have time to get it done. >> wow! >> and he's not going to comply with the court order, so that's something that we'll be working on as the night goes on. >> how do you work on that, if the court has made the order and the medical examiner is going to flout it, what's your recourse? >> we will go back to the judge and ask him to issue an order to show cause as to why the medical examiner is not complying with the order of the federal court. >> midway through t

mr. wood was breathing and gasping for air and struggling for one hour 40 minutes.extremely disturbing, prolonged execution, which really is the predictable consequence of arizona's experimental drug procedure. the fact that arizona shrouded its receipt or in secrecy. >> can you further talk about where the drug came from, the legal attempts to stop the execution before a court had stopped the execution on that day? two courts had issued injunctions on the execution, not typing it, but saying the department could not move forward without first disclosing additional information about the procedures. i cannot tell you where the drugs came from because the department of corrections has refused to disclose that information. informationl of the the department disclose was the name of the drugs it would be used and the doses. the department refused to disclose, despite repeated requests from mr. wood's lawyers, where the drugs came from, their lot numbers, expiration dates, were they fda approved, what pharmaceutical company made them, where they obtained illegally? they

mr. wood's execution lasted almost two hours. he struggled to breathe and he struggled against his restraints for an hour and 40 minutes. so it's really a yet again botched execution that has brought the problems of this endeavor to light. >> why do you think this is happening? >> well, i think that mr. wood's prolonged and really horrific execution is the predictable consequence of arizona's experimental procedure. they were using a combination of drugs that had been used only once before, which also resulted in a botched execution. they are vounisurrounds their procedures in secrecy refusing to disclose the pertinent information to help the courts and public assess these procedures for whether or not they're legal and constitutional and whether or not they're what we should be doing. >> so do you think that there might be a time, megan, when the courts actually step in? >> i would say that that time has already come. the courts really should be ordering the department of corrections to disclose the pertinent information about t

. >> after mr. wood gave his last words, the chemicals began to flow and his eyes closed and his brooiftding appeared to stop about five minutes into the process a medical team member came in and did a consciousness check he said mr. wood was sedated. about five minutes after that his lips began to move. and he exhaled and began gasping for air. and that gasping went on for an hour and 40 minutes. >> very descriptive account there. wood's lawyers filed an appeal asking he be resuscitating saying his rights against cruel and unusual punishment were being violated but that request was deniedenied. it's sure to stoke debate about the death penalty. amara? >>> an american teenager has been killed and his father is missing after a plane they were in crashed off the coast of american samoa. both were pilots attempting to set a record for flying around the world. their families say the plane crashed into the ocean on tuesday night. the u.s. coast guard is sending a ship to help search for the father. so far the

minutes into the process, a medical team member came in and did a consciousness check and said that mr. woodas sedated. about five minutes after that, his lips began to move, and he exhaled and began gasping for air. and that gasping went on for an hour and 40 minutes. >> now, wood's lawyers claims he was being subjected while all this was going on, to cruel and unusual punishment. they, in fact, appealed to have him resuscitated midway through the procedure. the supreme court rejected the motion. by the way, the relatives of the victims of joseph wood say, this was not cruel and unusual punishment, and he got what he deserved. >>> investigators are searching the site of a plane crash in taiwan, it killed 48 people. the flight crashed into residential homes while trying to land on penghu island. the flight data recorder has been recovered. there's been a lot of talk about the weather and whether or not this plane should have been flying at all. >> well, that's a good question, hala. certainly that's early speculation, but it's too early to tell definitively, of course. because this plane fle

>> the state says mr. wood was never in any pain or distress. i guess pain is hard to tell and it's hard to know the truth of that. distress might be something that is observable. do you agree with the state's assessment? >> for the most part seeing wood on the table, he -- he appeared to fall asleep and his eyes were closed the entire time. as far as if he might have felt anything of that sort, it's really not known. just observing him for the most part his whole body was very still except the gasps or the gulps he was doing every 5 to 8 seconds. it's really hard to tell if he felt anything. >> how long in all did it take to pronounce him dead, to check if this was finally over and come to a legal conclusion that the execution had been carried out? >> it was a very long process there. again, as i was doing my research, most people said it would take about ten minutes for him to die. it took an hour and 57 minutes. watching those gulps, i could really see through my notes the time line of counting those gulps 100, 200, 300. i counted 660 through

. >> no one knows whether mr. wood experienced pain. a medical doctor can't determine that.e don't know what the level of sedation was. but what we do know is that he was gasping for air. he was struggling to breathe. he was moving up on the restraints. and that went on for an hour and 40 minutes. and the five media witnesses who were there did not describe it as simply snoring. the victim's family certainly did go through a lot of pain. but the execution was not about that. the execution, when the states have the death penalty, and they decide to carry it out, they have to do it in compliance with the eighth amendment of the constitution. and the constitution says that death cannot be inflicted in a cruel or unusual manner. >> he blamed the extreme secrecy surrounding arizona's lethal injection drugs. but the state says it followed protocol and was supervised by medical professionals. >> this is not the first botched execution this year in the u.s. the state of oklahoma put the practice on hold after the controversial death of clayton locket. you may remember officials say

mr wood you can there's no liberal do. now as you've just seen the young couple and their child were killed there and they are among thirteen civilians who died in goal of car on sunday ukrainian forces say they're planning further attacks on militia controlling the city later today here is a local residents account of the previous deadly strike which hit residential areas . there was a strike on the city most likely from grad rocket systems there is a very popular supermarket in the city center when the shell fell onto it there were a lot of customers there another fell in a residential yard in another near the city's maternity home causing all the windows to blow out explosions could be heard all through the day starting from four in the morning they simply raising us to the ground. russia's foreign minister says that western countries should be pushing for an immediate and unconditional cease fire in ukraine in a cautious i was listening to this briefing to the media. the foreign minister brought up the peace plan in uk

mr. wood what do you think? >> we think the f.c.c. did ask some of the right questions but the path they're proposing to do that ken is talking about, preventing blocking and degrading of traffic is not going to do anything for the rest of us and will not work. the f.c.c. chairman said he wato use a particular legal authority to reinstate the rules, section 706 of the telecom act with apologies for diving straight in to numbers and codes. the court case that was issued in january in the d.c. circuit basically said ok, if you want to use section 706, will you have to allow substantial room for individualized bargaining and discrimination. right there in the text of the court case saying that the f.c.c. has some authority under this statute but not the authority to prevent discrimination or blocking. that's why we agree with chairman wheeler saying we need to have these protections in place, we appreciate the fact he's asking these questions. we just think the answers he's provide 0ing thus far with his preferred path will not get us to

. >> mr. woodwas gasping for air about five seconds to 12 second intervals almost two hours. >> everybody, from what i heard said it was excruciating. you don't know what excruciating is. what is excruciating is seeing your dad lying there in a pool of blood, your sister in a pool of blood. >> today's execution came after u.s. supreme court denied several appeals seeking details about the arizona execution methods >> officials in netherlands took charge of investigating who is responsible for shooting down that malaysian airliner and pleaded for unhindered access so they can do their work properly. the first of the victims returned to dutch soil. >> the first of the bodies arrived on wednesday. greeted by the country's prime minister, king, queen, and mourning family members. the country held a moment of silence to honor the 298 killed. 193 with were dutch citizens the war of words continues between russia and ukraine over who is responsible for the tragedy. ukraine's director of informational secu

. >> mr. woodas gasping for air about five seconds to 12 second intervals almost two hours. >> everybody, from what i heard said it was excruciating. you don't know what excruciating is. what is excruciating is seeing your dad lying there in a pool of blood, your sister in a pool of blood. >> today's execution came after u.s. supreme court denied several appeals seeking details about the arizona execution methods >> officials in netherlands took charge of investigating who is responsible for shooting down that malaysian airliner and pleaded for unhindered access so they can do their work properly. the first of the victims returned to dutch soil. >> the first of the bodies arrived on wednesday. greeted by the country's prime minister, king, queen, and mourning family members. the country held a moment of silence to honor the 298 killed. 193 with were dutch citizens the war of words continues between russia and ukraine over who is responsible for the ukraine's director of informational security says

>> about 10 minutes into the execution, i observed that mr. wood stopped breathing. i then noticed his lips move ever so slightly, and about two minutes after that, he let out a gasp, he raised up against the restraints that were holding him to the table, and he was gasping for air. that went on for an hour and 40 minutes. >> what did you do, talk to prison officials and ask them to do something? >> after about 45 to 50 minutes of observing that, i asked the two other lawyers who were witnessing to leave the room to make a phone call back to my office and to go to court to try and stop the execution, and within 15 or 20 minutes, we filed pleadings in the federal district court, the ninth circuit, the u.s. supreme court and the arizona supreme court, and two courts, the federal district court and the arizona supreme court held emergency hearings. >> family members of your client's victims witnessed the execution. here's what they see to say about it. >> everybody here from what i heard said it was excruciating. you don't know what excruciating is. what's excruciating

the alleged assailant and the alleged victim we did not file any external or internal charges on mr. woodshese guys have a lot of years left in prison. it's normal for the victim not to want to talk. he is not going to want to be labeled as snitch. that will further the probability of being assaulted in the future. he is maintaining the story that he fell. >> woods was released from the custody control unit and returned to general population. but he has a new cell assignment in a new housing unit. >> you got to get along in here. you got to. >> we get along good. >> have you seen cash since the altercation? >> no. he's on the other side of the prison. >> did you guys leave on good terms? >> of course. >> over in the protective custody unit joshua bean has received word on his ongoing investigation. after testing positive for methamphetamine during a recent shake down bean requested an outside lab do its own test. the results came back negative backing up bean's claims. i take wellbutrin. that pretty much means you test positive for methamphetamine. that's what i figured it would be from th

mr. wood's execution, i don't know. >> reporter: 55-year-old wood had been on death row since murdering his ex-girlfriend and father in 1989. the victim's family sees nothing wrong for what happened during the execution and says justice has finally been served. >> everybody is more worried about did he suffer. who really suffered was my dad and my sister when they were killed. >> reporter: a judge called for an emergency hearing right after the execution and an arizona state attorney assured the judge wood was comatose and did not feel any pain. the state is conducting an investigation and an independent autopsy will also take place. last week a federal judge in california declared the death penalty unconstitutional. state attorney general has not yet decided whether to appeal that ruling. earlier this week one of the highest ranking federal appeal s jerusal judges in california says prisons should just go back to death by firing squad because that would be more effective. >>> still ahead, what went wrong. another plane packed with passengers goes down. that wreckage just discovered. >>> me

mr. wood's eighth amendment right to be executed in the absence of cruel and unusual punishment.wyers have requested a stay of execution. the two drug combination the arizona senate will use for executions, first used in a january execution in ohio that saw an inmate choke, gasp and take nearly 25 minutes to die. the supreme court lifted that stay of execution yesterday paving the way for today. arizona governor jan brewer released a statement on the matter this hour, i am concerned by the length of time it took to complete the lawful execution of the convicted double murderer, joseph wood. justice was carried out today, i ask the department of corrections to conduct a full investigation. he did not suffer, this is in stark comparison to the gruesome vicious suffering he inflicted on his two victims and the lifetime of suffers he has caused their family. tonight at 9:00, rachel maddow will have more. dig into a succulent selection of crab entrées. like new crab lover's trio! with sweet snow crab legs, split king crab, and jumbo lump crab over savory shrimp. crab three ways! all o

mr. wood's lawyers aware of what the drug cocktail was and where the cocktail actually came from? i know this is a bone of contention and something that a lot of people are trying to sort out. >> lawyers knew what drugs were being used, but they were seeking were the source of the drugs, the lot number of the drugs, the maker. >> so the constitution, the eighth amendment of the constitution protects against cruel and unusual punishment. what is your view of this? i've got a view, and i guess many americans do. we've heard the view of the family of the victim in this case, and there were two victims, as i recall. when it takes a man two hours to die, is that considered cruel and unusual punishment in the eyes of the law, which is the critical question here? >> well, the question is going to be in general lethal injection, cruel and unusual punishment. in general the prior three-drug cocktail that was in popular use before the diminishing supply of drugs because of the eu decision that you mentioned, the supreme court in 2008 actually upheld against an eighth amendment challenge the

you counted about 660 times that mr. wood gasped? >> yeah, that's correct. so, like you said, it took about two hours, the whole process to happen. i saw about 10 minutes. and the first sort of gasp, it looked like a gulp. you could see his throat moving in and his stomach started moving. it turned to 200, 300. the very end i counted about 660. >> and you there were with the prison officials. were they disturbed at what they were seeing? >> that's why we were inside the witness area of the execution chamber looking around. to my left i saw the family of the victim just looking straight ahead toward the glass. prison officials in there kind of standing there likehey t in the middle of it, started to look around and i noticed something showing an the faces. >> thank you, mauricio marin of tucson news now. >>> here's an interesting fact. u.s. is on a relatively short list of countries that executes people. and america comes in fifth for the highest number of overall executions. you see that list there. we're behind china, iran, iraq and saudi arabia. quite a li

and mr. wood was not connected to equipment to determine whether or not he was experiencing pain.o, you know, those issues i think are going to be sorted out as time goes on in litigation in this case. >> were they required -- were they under any legal obligation to try to revive him once this was obviously failing? >> under the arizona protocol, there is a provision that if the prisoner is in distress, the prison officials can take steps to revive him. >> and what are you doing now? i know you wanted blood tests. you got a federal court order for blood tests. are you trying to establish this mix is not lethal, that these kinds of executions should not happen again? >> well, we know from what happened in ohio in january of this year that the combination of these two drugs, hydromorphone and medazolan caused problems with that execution. arizona was the second state to try that formula, and it didn't work in ohio, and it certainly did not work in arizona. >> thank you very much, dale baich. i know you'll continue on this case. >>> now to virginia where a possible tornado tore throu

mr. wood al: i thank the gentleman. -- mr. woodall: i thank the gentleman. mr. roth fust: we passed bills to reduces, increase production, and promote american energy independence. bills like the natural gas pipeline permit regular form act. the energy consumers relief act. the northern route approval act which will get the keystone x.l. pipeline going. passed in may of 2013. 241-175. it's been sitting over in the enate for 435 -- 434 days. we passed dozens of regulatory reform bills and keep an out of touch and out of control washington bureaucracy in check. like the rains act that the gentleman from florida mentioned a simple bill. if a regulatory agency puts out a regulation on the economy that's going to cost more than $50 million to implement, suppressing jobs growth, bring it pack here for an up or down vote. let's restore that constitutional responsibility for both the senate and house who had that responsibility for making the law and let us take accountability for that. if there's a regulation that needs approval, we'll vote for it. that's being account

the story below that has a picture of g brown, whose sister and father were murdered by the -- mr. wood, the person who took more than two hours to kill yesterday, and says in the story state officials and the victim's families took issues with other witness's descriptions, saying that mr. wood was not conscious after the first few minutes of that execution. so that out of the arizona republic this morning. also, "the new york times" has this story about that senate georgia run off race yesterday where david per don't you will face michelle nunn in the senate. the front page of the "washington times" this morning, gun prosecution's plummet under president obama. president obama decries gun violence and presses for more laws to restrict ownership, the justice department prosecuted 25% fewer cases. take a look at that, if you're interested, front page of the "washington times" this morning. matthew, blair, south carolina, good morning to you. democratic caller. caller: good morning. host: go ahead. caller: i was calling because every time i hear about the situation, i keep hearing people

mr. wood's execution, i don't know. >> reporter: arizona's state aclu wants executions put on hold.n brewer says while she's concerned about the length of the execution, it was legal. for jeannie brown, who has waited years to see her family's killer put to death, it was simply two more hours waiting for justice. >> this man deserved it and i shouldn't really call him a man. he deserved everything he had coming to him. >> remember, it was a botched execution in oklahoma this spring that really set off that national debate about lethal injection. in that instance clayton lockett was pronounced dead after 43 minutes, mika. >> thank you very much. you know, it's hard to believe that they still use that caulk -- that drug cocktail at this point. it didn't work now obviously more than once. >> well, the issue is they don't have a cocktail, a set of -- a mix of drugs they know that is foolproof and people have been asking to get more information about what drugs are being used. authorities are saying no, you can't have that information because we're worried that the manufacturers would be

mr. secretary, rosemary woods, choosing gore tried to act out how she after out how she after the phone and then putting her foot on the battle but it didn't work. she couldn't do it. in the end it was nixon sitting at camp david in front of the machine and erasing 18 and have minutes from the day from the cover-up conversation with haldeman. that's not anywhere except in what i put it all together later. he goes into detail about why the tape ran out and where further and further from the point. he explains his taping system was a little sony, these little sony's they had an ai this little lapel mic next on my desk and he said he rubbed the flag on his lapel. it was nixon who started the business of the business with the flags in the lapel but i remember john gartner said we should all wear the flag pins. we should all put the flag decals on our cars. don't let them take it from us. the democrats and liberals weren't that smart and so they've appropriated that simple to this day. he loves the flag in his lapel and he says with a smile, the equipment president johnson had was much better me

. >> why did the state use those same two drugs for mr. woods' execution, i don't know? >> reporter: the aclu wants executions put on hold. governor jan brewer says while she is concerned about the length of the execution, it was legal. for jeanie brown, she was waiting for years to have her family's killer put to death. it was simply two more hours waiting for justice. >> this man deserves it. i shouldn't call him a man. he deserves everything he had coming to him. >> reporter: remember it was a botched execution in oklahoma this spring that set off the debate about usingletal injection, in that instance the person was announced dead after 43 minutes. >> thank you. meanwhile, more victims from malaysia air flight 17 are being returned to the netherlands this morning. another emotional scene after wednesday's homecoming for the first time, it is believed it is a national day of mourning. katie, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, patt, 74 more victims have just landed at the airport. they have been given much of the same pomp and circumstance and ceremony as the vic

they were simply looking at the wrong stack of wood. >> mr. e wood. they didn't do that. one of the troopers said that he did that, but if you look in the background of his own photo you can see a wood pile in the tree line. >> reporter: what's more, the defense attorney maintained that everyone was misconstruing a.b.'s behavior at betty's bedside. a.b.'s own daughters told the jury how it was their father's work as a reverend that accounted for his demeanor that day. >> he'd been a pastor to many people who'd gone through tragedy. he is so good at understanding how to comfort other people. >> reporter: they said their father was overcome. >> we walked with him through the grief. >> we walked with him through it. we saw him. >> reporter: and remember that photo of a.b. smiling while he cooked scrapple just days after betty was gone? it was far from being evidence, the lawyer argued, of his indifference to betty's death. >> that's a snapshot. that's not a total picture of the whole time. >> no. >> it's taken out of context. >> reporter: in fact,

of course, always wood or any kind of plastic form or anything like that. >> job mr.ome of the pieces you have made while you have been here. -- taught me through some of the pieces you have made while you have been here. >> the first thing that attracted me to this was the printed surface. it was actually a poster. it was a silk screen watercolor, about 8 feet long. in terms of the flatwork, i work with a lot of cloddish. so being able to cut into it come at into it, removed parts, it is part of the process of negotiating the final form. >> how do you jump from the two dimensional work that you create to the three-dimensional? maybe going back from the 3f to 2d. >> everything is in the process of becoming. things are never said or settled. the sculptures are being made while i am doing the collages, and vice versa. it becomes a part of something else. there's always this figuring out of where things belong or where they could parapets something else. at the end goal is to possibly see one of these collage plans be built out and create a structure that reflects back i