mrs. broo brooks, from the telegraph, mcclellan, a chief executive and sometimes guy black, who had been the secretary of the pcc and i think was working as an adviser to the telegraph. it was those -- those were the core. but i understood from them that they were representing the views of the national press as a whole. i had no reason to think that they weren't. >> because these were the most powerful figures either within the pcc or on the editor's committee, was that your inference? >> i didn't say can i see your precise credentials. they were clearly powerful figures who were representing -- >> well, you knew them and you knew that's what they were. >> yeah. it wasn't an issue. >> in paragraph 83 you refer to a meeting that the minister sponsoring the bill had on the 17th of january, 2008. we have the note of the meeting under tab 44. i don't think it's necessary to turn it up. we know mr. brett and mr. garnier had a powerful voice on that occasion. then moving forward, in paragraph 84, you met directly with mr. dakor, mr. mcclellan, mrs. brooks. i don't think mr. hinton. >> mr. hinton i