mrs. lerner's hard drive. >> lois lerner said i called the i.t. department i wanted to see if i could get back information. if she really wanted to get back the information why wouldn't they welcome an outside investigator. she told us there's nothing there. there's nothing there. i did nothing wrong. they are stonewalling to the point where, as you say this, had to be pushed into the court system to get anywhere and final true to vote will get an an. >> i have a feeling -- i can't predict what he'll do. i won't suggest what he should do. he's a terrific and superb federal judge who calls things as he sees them. but i have a feeling that some light is going to come out of this. he's going to demand, he's going to insist the irs do something which the congress is powerless to do. i'm not blaming the congress. >> if they destroyed this evidence that's one thing. if they didn't save the evidence they are guilty of breaking law, correct? >> correct. but for them to say there can be no evidence in this case because the hard drive crashed before the cas

mr. lerner, you clearly have and we have heard from the united nations in the past hour. bbc has been told they informed you 17 times what the location of the school was and who was there. >> lucy, over the last hours we have had extensive fighting in that area. we had mortars that were fired from right near the school. and indeed there was an exchange of fire. we're currently looking into the tragic result. this is, you know, clearly we have seen the foot annual. it it is heart breaking. we have an ongoing working relationship with unrwa and the united nations. and in order to coordinate activities and keep their mission ongoing for the needs and requirements for the people in gaza at this time. >> unrwa just called what you have done a violation of international law. they say the violation of international law, an absolute disgrace, and that with the -- one of the best most equipped militaries in the world that you should have known that was a u.n. school. we're interested in what calculation you make when you're in an area so densely populated, there is fighting, we un

mr. lerner, the 1350,0005 people who have been killed in gaza, which includes the one-year-old baby and thed 13-year-old members of someone's family and any number of young people who aren't hamas quote, unquote terrorist, that is collateral damage. does israel feel that they are absolved for responsibility for those deaths? >> there is one party here who cares about the people of gaza and it isn't hamas because we tell our people, you know, take cover. take cover for yourselves. we tell them, take cover. what do hamas tell their people? to provide cover for the rockets. now, this is a huge dilemma. >> can you -- >> for where they place their rockets. >> you are telling me hamas -- you don't work for hamas. you work for the israeli army and i want to know whether you feel firing a knock on the roof, effectively a warning shot says that, you know, israel is not responsible for indisriminate killing. >> hamas created this aggravation of the situation last week, 10 days ago. we appealed to hamas, police calm will be met with calm and they chose aggression. they chose to assault attack and laun

would just ask to consent to enter into the record a statement made by miss lerner at a speech eight days after the statement mr. cartwright just referenced. miss lerner said, everyone's screaming at us right now, fix it now before the election. what we do know is that miss lerner gave a speech eight days after that meeting and said, everybody's asking me to fix it. >> unanimous consent request? >> i think the chair -- i would ask it's a full transcript of the staff interview with the director of doj. i object -- >> it is not the policy of this committee to put transcripts in their entirety out. i respect the gentleman's right to take any and all pertinent areas, but putting the questions and answers of transcripts has been proven to be used to coach witnesses. and the coaching of witnesses later on, i'm sure mr. cole would tell you is not productive in an investigation. >> gentleman from california? >> i would just. i have a second unanimous consent request. i would further ask, since we don't want to cherry pick around here, i was trying to avoid that. i know that the committee chair frowns on that. the may 2

mr. kane told us that he had discovered that ms. lerner's hard drive had crashed and that the contents of the hard drive were unrecoverable. however, that does not mean that mr. kane said that he thought in february of 2014 that the irs would never be able to produce those e-mails to congress. in fact, mr. kane was asked, quote, and as of march 2014, you were not aware that the irs would be unable to recover all of ms. lerner's documents. and he answered, quote, that's correct. he further explained, as you have, that the irs was engaged in an extensive process to find ms. lerner's e-mails from other sources at the irs. and in fact, those efforts were successful and yielded the production of an additional 24,000 lois lerner e-mails. is that correct? mr. koskinen? >> that is correct. >> mr. kane also explained that the irs' goal was to fully can comply with those requests as expeditiously as possible. he stated with respect to fulfilling that goal, and i quote, i have tried my best, and everyone that i work with have tried their best. commissi

mr. lerner not to come so we will not have testimony. you plan to move next to the business meeting to consider a resolution on mr. simas? >> based on his non-attendance, yes. questions to be clear, i'm statement that i would like to give to man it would be happy to wait until the business meeting is given, but i want to have that opportunity. >> that is correct. you like to give it, you may. >> i will wait. >> a brief response, as you know, we have an inherent obligation of oversight. the question before us today is a very straightforward question, are we doing oversight? is it our right and our obligation to do oversight? i believe it is. there is a long president that when this committee asks for someone appropriately, and they are not made available, and we believe we need that person, and in the case of an office of only four people, the head is not calming, that we expect that person to come. the record will show we have negotiated attempted alternatives, including transcribed interviews and other nonpublic ways to get the same info

lerner. but for that we never would have had mr. pill ger or mr. smith from the justice department for a deposition. mr. george didn't have that information in his hand. >> let's let the witness answer a question here. mr. cole, are you aware of any information to the effect that inspector general's statement there is incorrect? >> no. the understanding i have of the interactions between the justice department and the i.r.s. on those two meetings was that the i.r.s. in the first one said there's really nothing we can do here, and nothing came of it. and in the second meeting there was never any substance discussed. it never was followed up on. >> i thank you for that, ann and i yield back, mr. chairman. >> the point i'm making is that's the time frame -- if that's the time frame where the emails are lost -- i'm not even sure the i.r.s. was going to tell us they lost the emails but for the requests which uncovered the richard pilger-lois lerner correspondence. once they knew we got something from justice, then the i.r.s. says wait a minute, we bette

lerner e-mails. when they knew that according to mr. koskinen's testimony in questioning from me that he knew in april they couldn't get miss lerner's e-mails. when they decided to tell us four daze after we knew there was e-mails we were getting from justice that we weren't getting from the internal revenue service. that timing is pretty suspect, particularly in light of the fact all the other things we have heard from the irs. one computer crash, no was seven, no to eight. now up to 20. no backup tapes available. we can't confirm that. in light of everything we have heard, when you look at the time line, it looks pretty suspect. all i'm saying is i'm not sure they were going to tell us. >> mr. chairman, you -- mr. chairman, you have -- this has been very interesting because one member on your side, the gentleman i don't know his name, said to the man under investigation -- i heard -- i was in the entire hearing and he never said that. by the way, the justice department never said that. then you mr. chairman made some strong accusations

mr. chairman. ms. lerner, dr. mitchell on the whatous panel talked about she thought was a sham process. have you seen anything like that in your investigation? i am going to ask mr. bachman. >> have seen that in some investigations and are taking a closer look at those when we see them. these types of investigations can be difficult to prove as pretext for retaliation sometimes, but we are seeing that as an emerging trend, and it is something we are focusing we aremaking sure that gathering all the evidence we can to see exactly why was this undertaken. >> thank you. dr. tuchschmidt, are you aware 2013, the. program in stop the lying program? >> i am not sure which program you are talking about because stop the line is part of the lien technology process. there are many -- >> as i understand it, it is a way to encourage v.a. employees when something is going on where you would expect certain quality. >> many have adopted it on their own. but as part of our patient safety program, we have a stop the line timeout pr

lerner at a speech eight days after the meeting mr. cartwright just referenced at duke university in 2010 where ms. lerner said, "everybody is screaming at us right now fix it now before the election." forgot what mr. cartwright said, but we do know ms. lerner gave a speech eight days after that meeting and said everybody is asking me to fix it. >> i thank the chair. since we are putting stuff in the record, i would ask unanimous consent that the full transcript of the staff interview with the director of the election branch of doj -- >> i object. mr. chairman, is not the policy of this committee to put transcripts in the entirety out. i respect the gentleman's right to take any and all pertinent areas, but putting questions and answers of transcripts has proven to be used to coach witnesses, and the coaching of witnesses later on i'm sure mr. cole would tell you is not productive in an investigation. >> mr. chairman, i have a second unanimous consent request. since we do not want to cherry pick around here, i was simply trying to avoid

mr. pilger said he met with lois lerner in 2010. the justice complied with our subpoena and gave us the email. we contact you, why didn't you give us? and you knew you were caught. you knew we didn't give it to you because we don't got it. now we got to tell the whole world that we lost it. what time better than june 13, saying you're complying with some senate concern, sent in a letter, put it on page 7 of the 1/3 addendum and say, you know what, we may have a problem with lois lerner emails, that's what i think. >> good. >> i think all kinds of people logically going through this, you know what that's what prompted these guys, four days after getting a letter, well, we better come clean. because -- plus, you've already told us you knew clear back in april that you lost them. so you wait two months and say, we better do it june 13, just four days after they figured out justice and the i.r.s. were working together in 2010 and they got an email that indicates that and we can't produce it. >> when you find any direct evidence to suppo

lerner at a speech eight days after the meeting mr. artwright just referenced at duke university in 2010 where ms. lerner said, "everybody is screaming at us right now fix it now before the election." forgot what mr. cartwright said, but we do know ms. lerner gave a speech eight days after that meeting and said everybody is asking me to fix it. i thank the chair. since we are putting stuff in the record, i would ask unanimous consent that the full transcript of the staff interview with the director of the election branch of doj -- >> i object. mr. chairman, is not the policy of this committee to put transcripts in the entirety out. i respect the gentleman's right to take any and all pertinent areas, but putting questions and answers of transcripts has coach to be used to witnesses, and the coaching of witnesses later on i'm sure mr. cole would tell you is not productive in an investigation. mr. chairman, i have a second unanimous consent request. want to cherry pick around here, i was simply trying to avoid that because i know that the

lois lerner as speech eight days after the meeting that mr. cartwright just referenced. ms. lois lerner said, everyone, fix it now before the elections. what we do know is that there was a speech eight days after that meeting. >> mr. chairman, unanimous consent request. >> i thank the chair. since we are putting stuff on the record i would ask unanimous consent that the full transcript of the staff interview with the director of the election compliance manager at doj -- >> i object. it is not the policy of this committee to but transcripts in entirety. i respected temin's right to take any and all pertinent areas, but putting the questions and answers in transgress has been proven to be used to coach witnesses. in the coaching of witnesses later on, i'm sure mr. kohl will tell you, is not productive and an investigation. >> the gentleman from california >> mr. chairman, i have a second unanimous consent request. i would further ask sense we do not want to cherry pick around here -- i was simply trying to avoid that because i know the committee chair frowns on that. may 29, 20

mr. cole, we know that e-mails lerner sent odds the irs are missing. we know that she had communications with the justice department on several occasions in e-mails and we know that you are withholding certain documents from the committee. is it fair to assume that some of those documents you're withholding actually are e-mails that miss lerner has -- e-mails from miss lerner to people in the justice department. >> i don't know if it's fair to assume it. i don't know which documents are withheld and i don't know if it's fair to assume -- >> can you guarantee us that none of the documents the justice department is withholding from congress are lois lerner e-mails? >> i can't guarantee. i haven't looked at all the documents. >> we would like to give yhave documents. we have all kind of e-mails where it's lois, can you send it to us in the format the fbi? you have documents, the only e-mail that is are missing, frankly, this is why i raised the question earlier and nice if you would have -- maybe you have, but you won't tell us. got a swasht, got a court

mr. cole, isn't it true that richard pilger met with lois lerner back in 2010? >> yes, sir spin? >> yes, sir spin isn't it true he got information this 1.19 pages of information in the format that he asked for a? >> i think there was a request of several different forms they could come in, as i understand it, and we were asked to pick which one the fbi would prefer. >> lois lerner said we're checking on the disc we spoke about, incoming data regarding 501(c)(4) issue. does yet to have a format preference? all format is best because they can put in the system like excel. so richard pilger meet with lois lerner. you guys ask for specific information. that's right with you guys asked for this to? >> i'm not sure. i've seen in the mills specifically asking for. i think -- >> when you get in the format you want, we'd like it in excel format. starting 501(c)(4). sure looks like you asked for and you got the data, right? >> my understanding is we get to the data, that the requests were made before the meeting and the data was delivered. >> if it's publicly available information, why did

lerner. but for that we never would have had mr. pill ger or mr. smith from the justice department for a deposition. mr. george didn't have that information in his hand. >> let's let the witness answer a question here. mr. cole, are you aware of any information to the effect that inspector general's statement there is incorrect? >> no. the understanding i have of the interactions between the justice department and the i.r.s. on those two meetings was that the i.r.s. in the first one said there's really nothing we can do here, and nothing came of it. and in the second meeting there was never any substance discussed. it never was followed up on. >> i thank you for that, ann and i yield back, mr. chairman. >> the point i'm making is that's the time frame -- if that's the time frame where the emails are lost -- i'm not even sure the i.r.s. was going to tell us they lost the emails but for the requests which uncovered the richard pilger-lois lerner correspondence. once they knew we got something from justice, then the i.r.s. says wait a minute, we bette

koskinen a chance to try again and explain his testimony after isis said lerner's attorney made conflicting statements. here is mrkoskinen testifying 10 days ago on what he knew about whether lerner kept hard copies much her official records as required by law. >> the responsibility is if you have an email you have a record and print it out as a hard copy. my understanding every employee is supposed to print records that are official records on hard copy and keep them. she had hard copy records. >> but lerner's attorney dropped this bombshell when he spoke to "politico" last week saying his client did not know she was supposed to print out official records. a few days later, in a tv interview, lerner's attorney appeared to muck up the waters even more when he said this. >> she printed out some things, not others. you can't print out hundreds of thousands of emails. we'll be back, we'll be back -- >> print out everything that had to do with irs business, with policy, with questions? did she print all those out? >> what is federal record is subjective i'm not sure everything but she printed out a lot of things. >>

mr. desantis: of course the i.r.s. has identified roughly 80 individuals of interest in the investigation and yet now they tell us that as many as 19 of them may have suffered lois lerner-style hard drive crashes. mr. speaker, the troubling part about this is the american citizen would never be able to get away with these types of explanations. it is intolerable to have one set of rules for the i.r.s. and one set of rules for the rest of us and i yield back. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman's time has expired. for what purpose does the gentleman from michigan seek recognition? without objection, the gentleman is recognized for one minute. >> thank you, madam speaker. creating opportunity for hardworking american families and reigniting the american dream should be the top priority of this congress. mr. kildee: but instead we are about to embark on a one-month legislative recess as the house republican leadership continues to block action on legislation to create jobs and to grow the middle class. legislation awaiting action in an up-or-down vote is piling up. legislation to raise the minimum wage, to renew emergency unemployment insurance, to pass comprehensive i

lerner. we got those because they did a foia request. we would never have mr. pilger or mr. smith in for a deposition. he didn't have the information in his hand. >> let's let the witness answer a question here. mr. kohl, are you aware of any information to be a fact that inspector general statement there is incorrect? >> now. the understanding of the interaction between the justice department and the irs on those two meetings was that the irs and the first and so there's really nothing we can do here and nothing came of it on the second meeting there's never any substance discussed. >> i thank you for that. i yield back. the point i make is that it's a timeframe for the e-mails are lost. i'm not even sure the irs would tell us the last e-mails but for the judicial foia requests, which uncovered the lois lerner e-mail. once they knew we got some thing for justice. let them know we lost all the e-mails that were not safety agency and mr. kohl has told us today that some of the documents they are withholding are more vague respondents. he said he can't guarantee it is not. >>

lerner. we got those because of foia request. other than that we would never have had mr. pilger and mr. smith in for deposition. mr. george didn't have that information in his hand. >> and that -- let let the witness answer a question here. mr. cole, are you aware of any information to the effect that the inspector general's statement there is incorrect? >> no. the understanding i have of the interactions between the justice department and the irs on those two meetings was that the irs in the first one said there's really nothing we can do here and nothing came of it, and on the second meeting there was never really any substance discussed. it never was followed up on. >> i thank you for that. i yield back, mr. chairman. >> the point i'm making is, that's the time frame that -- that's the time frame where the e-mails are lost. i'm not even sure the irs was going to tell us they lost e-mails but for the judicial watch foia request which uncovered the richard pilger/lois lerner correspondence, lois lerner e-mail. once we got something from justice, then wait a minute, we better let them k

lerner's hard drive had crashed. that's why we've continued to have hearings. that's why we have mr. koskonen back. over a month after they told congress that they lost the e-mailine e-mai e-mails, there are still unanswered questions. deputy attorney general coal told us last week that the justice department learned of the missing lois lerner e-mails from press accounts and the media. imagine that. one of the highest profile investigations in years, and the justice department has to learn about critical evidence by the central player in this investigation. they learn about that in news accounts, not directly from the internal revenue service. that's why last week, deputy attorney general cole said he would have liked to learn about the e-mails earlier and was investigating why koskonen failed to reveal. he said last week to this same committee that they are investigating why the internal revenue service delayed months in telling the congress, the american people, the most importantly the fbi and the justice department about the loss of lois lerner's e-mails. rather than the irs coming to congress

they get email that shows he was talking with lois lerner in 2013. woe bring in mr. pill gear in. >> right before the inspector general's report went published, this is may of 2013 before. >> right before? >> actually days before. the email was two days before she went public. so we bring him, in we find out he not only talked to her then but in 2010. >> about what in 2010? about targeting? >> yes. about the whole citizens united case about the whole subject matter. we subpoenaed justice and we want all correspondence between justice and lois lerner. we get those emails. we then ask the irs why do we have to get this from justice? why didn't you provide them? >> here is the key fact. look at the time line. as a prosecutor did you that as well. that was june 9th when we sent that letter to the irs. june 13th is when they disclosed to the world, hey, we lost lois lerner's emails and they have been destroyed and they are unrecoverable. so you knew in february june 13th. why june 1st? because we sent a letter on june 9th saying we got email from the justice department th

mr. pilger in the justice department. e-mails to lois lerner. and i'll just quote. thanks, lois, the fbi says raw format is best because they can put this into their systems. again, the point that ranking member was just talking about, 1.1 million pages, 21 disks of information. the fbi got an exact format they wanted, had this information for four years. i'm aware of the testimony from the justice department that they did not use this information. but what i also know is they had it for four years and it did contain 6103 confidential taxpayer information. i ask that we enter this in the record as well. >> i would ask that mr. cole, since we want to be effective and efficient and not be caught up in distraction and dysfunction, that when he answers his questions, that he be allowed to answer what you just stated. i want to hear the answer to that, too, all right? >> i do, too. i hope he does answer and say it's not an yog gn investigation. that's why we've got him here. >> very well. >> thank you. >> anybody else wish to make an opening statement? mr. cartwright? th

lerner related documents promised to be delivered to congress. >> lois' attorney is not telling the truth or the commissioner was inaccurate in his testimony before congress. now, the lawyers, mr. taylor is not under oath. the commissioner is. probably will make us understand that lois lerner's attorney continues to profess her innocence when we're long past the question of guilt. >> chairman issa claiming the justice department is holding up the investigation into the targeting scandal and that may be political pressure will force it to move. meantime, a non part son watchdog group saying the i.r.s. may have obstructed congress when it said it lost lerner's emails. executive director of cause of action telling the daily crawler, it's very clear this is obstruction of congress. the i.r.s. became on notice that there was a congressional investigation which automatically means that there is a duty to preserve documents. there should have been copies of lois lerner's hard drive and other practices to make sure all of her emails and documents were preserved but isn't that the problem? there weren't. that's why we continue to see the frustration of the american people. >> first of

story now the ongoing israeli gaza conflict we've got peter lerner on the line he's from the i.d.f. let's talk to him briefly should we so mr learn a thanks for being with us you live on r.t. international we appreciate your time. wanted to put to have significantly more palestinians than and that israelis have been injured or killed in this operation mainly civilians what is your view on that what's the israeli view on this as you see so many civilians death has gone past two hundred now in gaza in the idea for peroration is ongoing in order to restore safety and security for the state of israel hamas decided to have an onslaught against against the state of israel and indeed even when we held our stations yesterday for six hours they continued to bombard israel. indiscriminately and we were left basically with no alternative. but it isn't kind of fighting like for like is it i'm sure you're taking no pleasure in this at all not for me and my suggesting that but you've got and i and most of your. residence in israel got somewhere to hide to that's not the case. it's kind of not fighting like for like is it should you not h

mr. simas was not going, and we won't have ms. lerner's testimony. my understanding is we continue on to the business meeting in spite of mr. simas not appearing. i have a statement i would like to give, and i'm happy to wait until the business meeting is given. >> if you would like to give it now, you may. >> no, i'll wait. thank you. >> mr. couple mipummings, just response, as you know, we have an inherent obligation of oversight. the question before us today is a very straightforward question. are we doing oversight? is it our right and our obligation to do oversight? i believe it is. there is a long precedent that when this committee asks for someone appropriately and they are not made available and we believe, the chair believes, we need that person, and in the case of an office of only four people, the head is not a big ask to be the most appropriate that we expect that person to come. the record will show that we have negotiated and attempted alternatives, including discussions about possible transcribed interviews and other non-public ways to

lerner's attorney is outright not telling the truth -- which he's played fast and loose with the truth several times -- or the commissioner was inaccurate in his testimony before congress. now, the lawyers, mr. taylor is not under oath. the commission or is. so hopefully, he'll clarify it, support it, and it probably will make us understand that lois lerner's attorney continues to profess her innocence when we're long past the question of guilt. she broke rules, she broke the law. lou: issa referring to statements that lerner kept hard copies of her e-mails. lerner's attorney denies she did that. either way koskinen should clear that up. we're coming right back. lou: the head of the terrorist group isil showing no fear in iraq. al-baghdadi delivers a blistering sermon for the cameras in mosul. general jack keane on what we should expect. friday night, buddy. you are gonna need a wingman. and with my cash back, you are money. forget him. my airline miles will take your game worldwide. what i'm really looking for is -- i got two words for you -- re-wards. ♪ there's got to be better cards than this. [ male announcer ] there's a better way with creditcards.com. compare hundreds of cards from al

mr. ferriero, there's a document put up on the board dated october 6, 2010, in which lois lerner sent 1.1 million documents including personal identifiable 6103 information to department of justice in order to aid potential prosecution. have you viewed that e-mail? >> yes, i have. >> would you say that is a record under the federal records act? >> not having access to the records schedule that was created by which this message was created, it is an e-mail that is record whether it's a temporary record or a permanent record, i can't tell. >> when the commissioner said that in fact he didn't know if the lost e-mails of which this is one included items covered under the federal records acts, he was mistaken, is that correct? >> all i can say is if it was a created from what i read it is a record. what i can't tell is whether it's a temporary record or a permanent record. >> lastly, this committee has jurisdiction. is it reasonable to destroy after six months data routinely so a request simply goes to data that isn't there any longer. if you want to know what was said or done, if it doesn't h

eric holder saying newly discovered e-mails show lois lerner referring to conservatives as "a-holes and crazies" and that letter was closed asking mr. holder to appoint a special council. looks like it's in black and white. >> thank you very much. >>> imagine cruising down the street in your car and you look over and you see there's nobody at the wheel of the car in the next lane. what? it's going to happen a lot in the u.k. really soon. amy kellogg is live in london with details. how is this going to work, amy? >> nobody is expecting a road revolution here just yet but we'll see some of these driverless cars being tested in the next year. britain wants to put the pedal to the metal on this technology because basically it seems that a driverless future may be in the cards for all of us. britain today announced that it was going to give cash grants to three cities to start testing these cars. some entirely without drivers. some with drivers who don't actually drive but can jump in and take over if need be. across the pond, google cars are ahead of the pack. california is getting a inting grant licenses for driverless cars. car compa

lerner's attorney is outright not telling the truth, which he's played fast and loose with the truth several times, or the commissioner was inaccurate in his testimony before congress. the lawyers, mrylor, is not under oath. the commissioner is. hopefully he'll clarify it, support t and it will probably make us understand that lois lerner's attorney continues to profess her innocence when we're long past the question of guilt. he broke rules, broke the law, and continues to hide under the fifth amendment, which is her right. >> the justice department is doing an investigation. it said, you know, a year or so ago it announced it was going to do that. the attorney general eric holder says that's ongoing. you and others in the house have concerns about exactly what's happening. one of the committee staffers said the committee is going to, quote, take a look at what the doj is or isn't doing. what does that mean? what's the plan? >> at some point, after you've produced -- and i brought my props. but this is all about the targets of conservatives, not progressives, for their political beliefs. this is a pretty definitive document on lois lerner. and there's more to be done. this is sepa

mr. koskinen here to answer and address what many of those unanswered questions. first, we were promised the irs would produce all of lois lerner's e-mails. then we learned some had been destroyed and there was absolutely no way he could produce all of ms. lerner's e-mails to congress. second, we were told the irs had confirmed that all back updates with lois lerner's e-mails had been destroyed. then we learned last week from irs attorney thomas kane that a backup tape may exist. third, we were told there was one harddrive crash, lois lerners and then the ways and means committee told us there were seven or eight total crashes and now we learn that there may be as many as 20. think about this. the irs has identified 83 custodians of documents and information. the irs has identified these people, associated with this targeting of conservative groups, and now almost a fourth of them may have had harddrive crashes. unbelievable. first, we were told that irs found utin april of 2014 that ms. lerner's e-mails were lost, but then we learned they knew on february 4th, 2013, about the hard drive crash and it found out just days later tha

mr. webster, would it be fair to say that when you should have been informed if lois lerner knew that there could be federal records on the lost drive, it would have been at the point that she discovered her drive was broken and/or at the point they were convinced they couldn't recover it, at that point would it have come to the national archives as now you get to try to recover them if there are known fob federal records on them. that would have been the time frame. >> it would have been 3preferre for us to know about it when there was an issue that indicated e-mail was lost. >> and hundreds of other places lois lerner could have helped you look for and find the records that would existed in real time rather than years later. >> that's -- the reason i'm having difficulty answer that question, it's more of an operational issue within the irs as opposed to -- >> but prompt reporting to you makes a difference. >> yes, because the proper reporting to us allows the agency itself to be on notice to itself that they need to take action. >> mr. chairman, can i ask unanimous consent that the gentle

mr. obama and his fellow democrats have called the move a political stunt ahead of the midterm elections. >>> also on capitol hill newly released e-mails from lois lerner. in those she made two disparaging remarks about some republicans calling them crazies and another name we can't repeat. now, the chairman of the house ways and means committee has turned the messages over to the justice department. he says the clear sign she had it out for conservatives. >> these e-mails really show lois lerner's political bias and state of mind. this is a serious matter. when conservatives only were targeted, progressives weren't. >> we've never heard lois' side of the story and took the fifth and refused to testify before congress and has since retired. >> the key witness has taken the stand in the high-profile corruption trial of former virginia governor bob mcdonnell and his wife. prosecutors say johnny williams secretly gave them more than $165,000 in loans and gifts to promote his company. williams testified he loaned the mcdonald's $15,000 to cover catering at their daughter's wedding as well as buying dresses for mrs. o'donnell. well, her lawyers argued she a

why lois lerner hasn't been -- for that matter, why democrats have repeatedly mischaractered the supreme court decision which mrterrible track record at the supreme court having several unanimous decisions against it, 20 times they've been ruled against unanimously by this court. the attorney general is not asked to make the administration's case for expanding executive authority. and perhaps threatening our constitutional system as professor jonathan turly and others have alleged in congressional testimony. and we could go on. joining me now judge napolitano our fox news senior analyst. i mean, really, there was not a question about the irs? >> the interview on abc news about what you refer was so tepid, it was almost as if eric holder was running for office and this was his campaign manager questioning him. this is not a political crisis. this is a constitutional crisis, megyn. the american people have a right to know there is a cheap law enforcement officer of the land and he is, a, enforcing the law impartially, and, b, telling the truth about what he's doing. it appears the attorney general is doing neithe