ms. harrington. >> i find mr. russell is almost correct about the extent of the disagreement that's left in this case. our position is not that we can prevail if we can prove that a defendant believed that his conduct was illegal under some law other than the csa or the analogue act our position is that we can prevail if we can prove that a defendant knowingly distributed a drug and that he believed that his conduct that his distribution of the drug was illegal generally. as justice -- >> my question that i posed to him is really for you. >> would you mind repeating it? >> well i'll try. suppose you have to show -- and i think you do -- that the defendant did know it is an analogue, say, to cocaine. there are two ways you could do that, the first way is you could show that this defendant being a graduate in chemistry knows what the chemical competition of cocaine is, knows what the chemical composition of this other substance is and knows they are the same. you're not going to be able to do that very often. >> rig

ms. harrington. >> let me try one more time. it would be consistent with the way the court treated other issues such as willful standard. >> not willful. the problem is not articulation. we are sitting here thinking of examples like the anti bird hunting statute you cannot hunt the green i'd turkeys and the guy's never heard of that and you say ok don't know if this is a green i'd turkey and don't know if it violates the green i'd turkey statute but maybe it violates something. it sounds like an odd principle even if you limit it to all laws concerning birds. you see the problem? skulking around in the bushes. we could go around like this but i'd better not. >> that is a real-world problem and i understand the questions, i am not trying to avoid answering it but the willful context, that has sufficiency if the defendant believes what he's doing is illegal he doesn't have to have a sense what what he is violating, and the higher standard than knowing what is intentional and the court never addressed the penal code and embraced th