ms. lisa heinzerling who is a professor at georgetown university. welcome. >> thank you, thank you for inviting me to appear before you today to discuss the legal obligations of epa's carbon dioxide rule. many dramatic legal arguments have been raised against epa's proposal. opponents have claimed the proposal is unconstitutional under any one of a number of novel theories. they also argued that the whole proposal or significant aspects of it are unlawful under the clean air act. you've heard several such arguments already this morning. in my view, the constitutional and statutory arguments that have been raised against epa's proposed rule collapse upon close inspection. for example, constitutional principles of federalism are not violated i epa's proposal. and epa's proposal states have a choice. they may devise their own plans to be a state specific targets epa will set forth in a that bp devise a plan for them. this is the very same choice states have had for 45 years under the air quality standards program of the clean air act. it is not an unco

ms. heinzerling, think of that conversation and what that fellow said. how does it relate to what we are doing here, what dp is trying to accomplish? >> it fits it exactly, senator. that is this plan sets out what states are to do, gives them targets to meet, gives them the flexibility to choose the way they want to meet those targets. in this respect, it is strange and surprising to me that states are already saying that they prefer to have the federal government set their plans, but gives them that kind of flexibility to set their own plans to meet targets and gives them the times to do it. the timelines in this rule are notably long. we are looking out to 2030 for final compliance with the structure of this plan so your story fits this rule perfectly. >> good. miss backman i think you were saying maryland had a heavy reliance on coal in the generation for electricity, and what you said was you reduced over the last seven or eight years your co 2 emissions by roughly 40%. >> yes, sir. >> and part of this regional coalition was delaware and a bunch of o

ms . heinzerling, in addition to the acid rain program that i just mentioned, are there other examples of using energy efficiency renewable in the clean air act? >> yes. very early on, some 35 years ago, they included washing of coal before burned as compliance mechanism for dealing with the clean air act. it was something that wasn't within the source, wasn't a typical into the pipe kind of measure. in regulating interstate conventional air pollutant, eepz included renewables and energy efficiency as potential compliance if you look at section 202 to regulate mobile sources, you might if you looked at that quickly, you may think that's a classic end of the pipe measure. and yet if you look at epa's most recent rules on greenhouse gas emissions from mobile sources, epa has in terms used today gone i think beyond the fence line. they included flexibilities in their rule that made the rule a marvel of modernization. they included the air conditioning refrig. rants used in the vehicle, flex fuel vehicles, and so if you look not just at the pollution regulation that we have been talking about

ms? >> miss heinzerling, think about that conversation and what that fellow said to me that day.t fits it exactly, senator. that is this plan sets out what states are to do, gives them targets to meet gives them the flexibility to choose the way they want to meet those targets. in this respect it is strange and surprising to me that states are already saying that they'd prefer to have the federal government set their plans, but it gives them that kind of flexibility to set their own plans to meet the targets and then it gives them the times to do it. the time lines in this rule are notably long. we're looking out to 2030 for a final compliance with the structure of this plan. so i think your story fits this rule perfectly. >> good. miss backman, i think you were saying maryland has had a fairly heavy reliance on coal, and i think what you said was that you reduced over the last, i don't know, seven or eight years your co2 emissions by roughly 40%. >> yes sir. >> and you're part of this regional coalition with delaware and a bunch of other states. in my last job that i had as gove