ms. mackinnon: and it's not a business model. mr. ranjoo: what do you mean? ms. mackinnon: this is -- this is the challenge. i mean you know, do you want -- we don't have a society in which people are going to allow their tax dollars to be substantially used to support media, that is not commercially driven, that's not where the society is going. there are pros and cons to public media in other countries, in the state media and so on. so it is a problem, but certainly ad driven media is part of it. i don't think we know exactly what the solution is other than that there needs to be more experiments, there needs to be more community media, citizen media you know -- mr. rinat: subscriber driven media. ms. mackinnon: subscriber driven media. mr. manjoo: i don't want to be a shill for my employer but this is why we -- like the new york times sort of new business model is to get subscriptions. and people are subscribing, does that give any of you some 45 -- some measure of optimism, not about the new york times but about people pointing at people stuff. mr. rinat: yeah

ms. mackinnon: and it's not a business model. mr. rinat: what do you mean? ms. mackinnon: this is -- this is the challenge. i mean you know, do you want -- we don't have a society in which people are going to allow their tax dollars to be substantially used to support media, that is not commercially driven, that's not where the society is going. there are pros and cons to public media in other countries, in the state media and so on. so it is a problem, but certainly ad driven media is part of it. i don't think we know exactly what the solution is other than that there needs to be more experiments, there needs to be more community media, citizen media you know -- mr. rinat: subscriber driven media. ms. mackinnon: subscriber driven media. mr. manjoo: i don't want to be a shill for my employer but this is why we -- like the new york times sort of new business model is to get subscriptions. and people are subscribing, does that give any of you some 45 measure of optimism, not about the new york times but about people pointing at people stuff. mr. rinat: yeah and tha