ms. ratcliffe. let's talk about this and i hate to use this term apples and oranges because it's become sort of a term that is not in good standing right now after some recent events and debates. but is it fair to compare the nonconforming with the conforming, if we conclude that, come to some conclusion about jumbos. is it fair to use that for the entire market? >> i think your point is perhaps saying that the benefits of having a government guarantee are able to be quantified or monetized by looking at the spread between the jumble paper and wood of somebody getting a government-backed our government supported gse loan pay for a sum of mortgage product, and that spread doesn't look very good for people say there's not that much value. my point would be that again, it's true that apple and borrowers with a down payment and good incomes should be able to tap into that kind of credit at very efficient rates without a government back to packing. that's what we need to find out where that line is i'm n