mzamo mangaliso is a management professor at the university of massacusetts, amherst. charles villa-vicencio was the national research director in the south african truth and reconciliation commission. he's a visiting professor at georgetown university. penelope andrews i want to start with you. if i can frame it personally first tell us what nelson mandela meant to you growing newspaper south africa, how did you see him? >> well, for me growing up in south africa, certainly nelson mandela was a in many ways a mythical figure. but he also became a sim symbol of what south africa was to become. an mandela has always represented for me as a lawyer, a profound commitment to the rule of law, to constitutionalism and the possibilities of law to change people's lives. and i think he means that to me as a lawyer but also to the vast, large number of people who have looked at south africa's transmission-- transition an seen what the constitution has been able to do, despite the limitations because of poverty and economic inequality that still persists in the country. >> brown: