and what nancy kassebaum said to me is, "don't try to defend controversial art. "you can't do it. "there are going to be some people "who are just never going to accept it, and there are going to be some who will understand it." and orrin hatch said a similar thing to me. orrin hatch was always extremely supportive of the n.e.a. and he said to me, "don't waste your time "coming to visit people like me, "who are going to be supportive all the time, "and don't waste your time "going to see people like dick armey, "who are always going to be "against federal funding for the arts. "go for the fence-sitters. "go for the ones who really don't know "what you're doing with the n.e.a. and what art--in-- for our society is all about." and yet you did not shy away from at least engaging some people who clearly were on the other side. you paid visits to jesse helms, newt gingrich. was that time well invested? i do believe it was in the long run. jesse helms and i-- we must never forget that he's a courtly southern gentleman, and he's not an uncivil person at all in person. he's quite charming