a couple other things traders down here talk about and that as s as rates start to move higher nao even in a managed rate type of environment the self-adjusting mechanism of throttling things back may keep a lid on rates. many traders don't think we'll do a lot of work above 2.5. forget all the reasons you've heard about fed programs. when we had a $6 trillion deficit a number of years ago, our interest rate expense wasn't so much different than it is now, and when we have multiple times the 6 trillion in debt. the moral of the story is if rates normalize we go from 300 billion in servicing the debt to much, much more. maybe that's the discussion we should be having. >> and also, rick -- >> yeah, but, rick, what's the environment under which we normalize? if we normalize on interest rates, are we also normalizing on tax revenue? i mean works knows. >> and you have a much smaller deficit. >> i'm a market guy. not a fiscal guy. washington needs to take notice, you're right. i'm with you. >> okay, rick. >> you're the political guy, in my opinion. >> you're really a political guy. >> well,