within 24 hours, the narrative was out. they crossed the border, going for the oil in the persian gulf. this is war. every discussion about treaties was gone, vanished overnight. well, we noticed it. we were very suprised, and nobody seemed to be able to do anything about it. we kind of speculated. something happened inside the washington. nobody knew about it. we trailed it and trailed it. western media was kicked out of afghanistan within the first month of the invasion. we decided shortly thereafter let's get a visa to get in. we went to the united nations to the afghan consulate in the united nations and basically presented them with a plan saying pretty much, you know, the rumors floating out cannot be what you want, so let us go in and see, and they came back six months later with a visa and said, okay. we went to cbs news saying we got the visa. you got the qiement. you know, can we cut a deal? we went in for cbs news and quickly discovered coming back with that story from cbs news that they were really looking for a

in other words, this narrative is that essentially the soviet union was trapped into invading. it was goaded to get them caught in their vietnam and weaken the soviets. the struggle between empires, the soviet and the american empire and the people who suffered were the afghani people. >> there's no doubt what you talk about is absolutely true. the first book goes into great detail about the true nature of the activity that the united states was involved in preceding the soviet invasion. in fact, actually the original activity that the united states got involved in was as early as 1973 through pakistan. that's when the leaders were being paid and used to invade and to try to destabilize a regime at the time. you're looking at -- that's why it's invisible history because it's an unknown history to the americans how the soviets were in fact drawn into afghanistan. president carter's national security adviser went public with this in 1998 in an interview where he stated clearly that the intention of a project started six months proceeding the soviet invasion and acknowledge six mo

it is hard to tell and narrative that is about success and a narrative of progress when you have apple may mathews police have not narrative. so that is a large part of it. and of course it matters who writes history, rate click set as a tremendous part of it, too. other questions? >> i probably didn't have to come tonight for this, but you mentioned that had the dissenters -- well, you talk about what the dissenters would've preferred that is meant to look like as opposed to the mainstream leaders. i wanted to get your personal opinion on whether or not you think the movement would've been better served had the dissenters had their way. i guess a very large or robust fashion. >> so that is a complicated question in part because a part of what i'm arguing is that the dissenters disagree with one another. so i can only answer the question by referring to particular dissenters that particular historical moments. and so, i'll start with the paramus says. i do think that the critique of school desegregation that was offered was valuable. plus, when i think it may teach education law and po

why the administration narrative is changing. >>> also, nbc has learned a decision is expected today to whether to release the ghastly photo of bin laden's body. the white house appears to be leaning against it, but the cia director told brian williams it's inevitable. >> i don't think there was any question that ultimately a photograph would be presented to the public. >>> and in the 2012, the mitch daniels factor. the not-yet candidate who's quickly becoming a republican favorite. >>> good morning, it's wednesday, may 4th, 2011. i'm savannah guthrie. >> and i'm chuck todd. all the scrutiny on pakistan. as the debt debate returns to washington, is time running out for congress's gang of six? >>> we'll start with bin laden. u.s. agencies are just beginning to sift through what has been called a potential gold mine of intelligence taken from osama bin laden's compound. including thousands of electronic files and paper documents. >> cia director leon panetta talked about it on "nbc's nightly news." >> we picked up an awful lot of information there at the compound. if you combine that w

your narrative gives you some influence with the people in tahrir square.and i think the obama administration was trying to walk this tight rope and, obviously, it wobbled several times. but i think it got down that tight rope relatively well. so i think neil is wrong. neil loves to simplify things. i don't think he got this one quite right either. but i think it's a good illustration of -- he's a friend of mine, so i'd tell him this if he were setting where you are, and we've had debates and lots of fun with it. but i think the key here is to learn how are you going to combine your hard power, dealing with the government, and your soft power dealing with civil society and do them without one canceling out the other? and i would argue that, yeah, it was not easy, but i don't think the obama administration did that badly on it. >> we can get a second, third look for another intern around the table before going someplace else. jeffrey? >> i was wondering if you could speak more about how the u.s. should possibly change -- [inaudible] you just mentioned given

>> you continue the narrative. you cause the narrative to go on. you contribute to the discussion. now, if we had released the pictures, people would then be dissecting the pictures. they bead doing measuring, they'd be finding proof that it wasn't him. it would go on and on and on. it would feed the blogs, particularly the islamic blogs but also the conspiracy theorists here. i think the government is best to say, look, he's dead, we killed him, we know we killed him, al qaeda knows we killed him. and just move on and if there are those people who want to make an industry out of talking about it, who have nothing else to do, fine. let them. >> suarez: ron, you heard richard clarke mention elvis sightings. did it seem there was even much pushback on this story. a sizable number of people who were doubting, in fact, that osama bin laden was dead and that these photos were a necessary antidote to that? >> well, i don't think there's such a weight of pressure that that drove any element of this decision. i think dick is right. there are always going to be conspiracy theorists out ther

narrative nonfiction is difficult enough. you are doing narrative nonfiction with a first-person narrator. in other words putting yourself in the story. was that a necessary choice, a hard choice, and what problems does it raise for you in the construction of a book like this because a narrative nonfiction in the first person is relatively rare in the genre. >> taylor that was a multipart question and i have trouble with multipart questions. i'm going to just go with the first part of your question. first of all, i just want to say thank you so much to columbia university and the lenten family. thank you for having a work in progress award. thank you so much. such a great affirmation. i fully expected to have a relatively, a small audience for this book and to receive this kind of award from these organizations is such encouragement for me to continue on so thank you, thank you, thank you. as far as the decision to go first-person, it was very difficult because it is a vulnerable topic to begin with and to write it in the fir

it is quite a confusing narrative right now. one would only hope that this cloud of confusion will clear up. >> clearly, lots of frustration after her -- about pakistan. i asked if we will see some tangible consequences. >> it seems like we're already seeing tangible consequences at the moment. lawmakers want to look into this in and out of there are any ties between the government and the terrorists during these days. some $1.3 billion a year. they are looking into that. he i would say it is a minority, the u.s. have been fulfilled their national security goals, they might relax a little bit. at the moment, a deceit that as the low point, deteriorated even more. >> is the legality of the killing under international law? >> the u.s. attorney general did not really going to dail about why he tught this was legal. the whole matter is extremely complicated. was this a killing mission or not? it does not appear to be covered by international law. that is basically the central question. how are other issues involved, for example. in

they have this narrative. and we have talked about that. but now we have a narrative too, and we just found a guy who murdered 3,000 americans and countless people around the world living in basically a resort community of military community of pakistan. but that gives us great leverage behind closed doors. because we've got to tell these guys, now is the time. we have to investigate what happened. >> what would you ask them for? >> we need a joint investigation here, how was this compound built, who owned the land, who are the contractors. there's a whole network that would supply this place. we need to know that and work together on it. >> say you find out the answers to all of those questions. we find out the contracts on, who sold him the cement, whatever it is. and what you find out, people knew about it. people helped him. so what? >> we've got to work with the pakistanis to try to root outlet problems within their own not only security structures but intelligence structures and government structures. we can't walk away, and we also -

not speculate because obviously if you speculate and you going to backtrack and you've lost your narrative and that's what's happened here so right now because of them essentially the old adage is if you're going to stop you know if you're if you're in a hole stop digging that like i think are there now going but it's too late because what they're now opening the door for is the narrative to be picked up by someone else and i suspect strongly that the pakistanis with bin laden surviving widow will be the one telling the story from here on which is not in our best interest you know that's that's a good point that you make and the pakistanis have come out saying that assignment and lot and did not resist and that nobody was armed there was no resistance do you think a white house is flip flopping and gives credence to these arguments and gives credence to the claim that this was an extrajudicial killing well yes and yes you know there were some extra legal actions here and you violated the country's sovereignty and you did this essentially as an assassination squad just on up to it to say ok

the al qaeda narrative was playing out. interestingly, in egypt and north africa, i do see growing strength of for the kind of islam that bin laden embraced. you see when women wearing the full veil in a way they never would have before. that kind of faith is very much alive. >> that is an interesting complexity. is it possible that the arab spring might have prepared much of that part of the world for the message and ideals that bin laden espoused? >> what we saw during the tahrir square revolution was a country come together to see the divisions of religious, economic, political not the way and a national self assertion. if that spirit remains strong in egypt and these other countries, you can be hopeful that the al qaeda idea that that notion about change would be defeated. if that democratic revolution falters, if there is economic chaos in egypt, if there is insecurity in the streets, the world will have an appeal. just as the taliban had an appeal. these fundamentalists will have an appeal in egypt. >> the detailed --

your narrative did you influence over the people in tahrir square. i think the obama administration was trying to walk this tightrope. and obviously it wobbled several times. but i think it got down that tightrope relatively well. so i think meal is wrong. news loves to simplify things. i don't think he got this one quite right either. but i think it's a good illustration that he's a friend of mine. i would tell him this if he was sitting where you're. we've had lots of fun with it. i think the key here is to learn how are you going to combine your hard power dealing with a government, and a soft power dealing with civil society and do them without one canceling out the other. and i would argue that yeah, it was not easy. but i don't think the obama administration did that badly on it. >> you give a second and third look for another turn around the table here. jeffrey? >> i was wanting if you could tell more about how u.s. could possibly change -- [inaudible] given that the middle east is largely made up of people of a certain age group, that often m

they did what we did and i think that's why it's necessary especially with the butchering of the narrative to put all the information out there that they can be put out there was no reason to put all the information about what they seized of obama's house the thumb drives everything else like come talk about that we need to talk about the fact he said well i used it and most importantly we're just doctors are cowards what are we doing next they should be if they were smart they get an area focused on them ok let me just back up because you have you know when you were in combat in afghanistan and you were. are searching for senior al-qaeda leaders including you and you've done so what do you think really happened and was the goal do you think they always went in saying we're taking him down because all the details that come out just make it sound sketchy and sketchy or dumping a body and you know him not being armed and it's kind of the whole thing at the time i was there the objective was to capture i'm not sure if the policy changed since then my guys are telling me that they were discour

how the week we killed bin laden changed the political narrative.he first debate of the 2012 season is now for the record books. what a showdown between five guys most people have never heard of. we'll get into that. >>> but first, the moment we've all been waiting for, white house soup of the day, debuting a brand-new soup at the mess today, it's chilled cucumber. and according to my senior soup source, quote, the president was given an option of three soups and chose the riskiest blend with the biggest payoff in terms of taste. code name delicious. having the right real estate agent on your side is more important than ever. at remax.com, you can find the experts you need, whether you're trying to sell of hoping to buy. nobody sells more real estate than re/max. visit remax.com today. ♪ [ female announcer ] mini, meet berries. introducing new kellogg's frosted mini-wheats with a touch of fruit in the middle. helloooooo fruit in the middle. that's how it is with alzheimer's disease. she needs help from me. and her medication. the exelon patch -- it

and, thus, as one of the more recent successful candidates for the president who didn't pursue a narrative for himself as an outsider. bill clinton absolutely ran as an outsider, we've already mentioned george bush. so i think that's interesting. certainly a group that's very much working the outsider shtick today would be the tea party. very, very energized by that sense of opposition to a kind of corrupt, mainstream america ha's gone astray. that's gone astray. >> host: how did you grow up, white middle class? >> guest: i did. i did. >> host: and were you attracted to outside causes or -- >> guest: i think it's really hard to be a young person in america since the 50s, especially since the era of holden caufield, and not see yours as an outsider. -- yourself as an outsider. and, certainly, i was attracted to that too. i went off to college in suburban atlanta to the university of georgia which at that time was breaking out with crazy musicians, rem was playing for free in venues around town, and people thought it was the music capital of the nation. so, yes, i certainly enjoyed that and

obviously there's been differing narratives that have come out on successive days, i think everyone has to take a deep breath, and dig more and wait for more details. obviously they reject the notion that it was put forward by these pakistani forces. pakistanist sources are not the most reliable in that regard, and they stand xwi that osama bin laden was resisting his capture. i wouldn't be surprised if the administration is forced to revisit its narrative frat once more. >> hisham, the taliban put out a statement, one of their officials said, quote, the americans have not shown any credible evidence of sheikh osama's death. if we did show the pictures, the conspiracy theorists would say it's not signed in the back, it has the wrong date, et cetera, et cetera, do we care about appeasing those people? should we put the pictures out? shouldn't we? >> i think the president decided not to release the photos, because he knew that he would be subjecting himself to the howling of people who would say this is gory, graphic, insensitive, the united states is using it as a trophy, as you said. on

tonight, it's time to change the narrative. again. >> america will ensure the justice is done. >> his killing was appropriate. >> osama bin laden is dead and you'll just have to take his word for it. >> photo, no no. >> it's breaking news right now. >> the president has decided not to have these photos released. >> the photos of osama bin laden -- >> described to me by several sources as ghastly. >> the photograph of his blown up face. >> a gaping wound over the left eye. >> brain tissue -- >> no real strong drum beat for releasing it. >> it's not necessary. >> i personally think it's morbid. >> i support the president's decision. >> i share the president's view. >> lindsay graham said he respectfully disagreed with the president's decision. >> photographs can be manipulated. >> i don't want a conspiracy theory. >> but what really happened inside the compound? >> more details are seeping out. >> what i said yesterday stands. >> questions about whether he was armed or whether he wasn't armed. >> the changing narrative. >> you ca

in your narrative, how do you factor in the european influence and the financial interest in your narrative? >> that is a great question. the european interest has significant impact on the civil war itself. several reasons. first, the republican congress, and there have been an overwhelmingly republican congress, have very strong majority in both houses. they pushed through very strong economic nationalist the legislative agendas become a national bank, the purchase of bonds to finance -- the selling of bonds to finance the war. national land grant college, subsidies for transcontinental railroad being proven and rivers and harbors. just an array of economic legislation. some of that, some of this legislation was held by financing from europe, particularly from great britain. one of the reasons why great britain is so hesitant to jump in and recognize the confederacy is they have an economic state in the union, in the north. this was a very powerful argument for just staying out of the conflict. so english investment in particular was very important. you know, i would not call it a funny i

i sort of have this basic theory for a narrative. it doesn't matter what you're writing, whether it's a newspaper story, novel or anything. the reader has to be ingauged on the first -- engaged. on the first page something has to be at stake for the reader. either the reader has to be worried that something's going to happen or hoping that something's going to happen that she wants to have happen but it might not. and this, it was all perfectly set up. the oil spill is hanging out there already creating a sense of urgency in the narrative which allows you to sort of step back. you don't have to focus on the oil spill from page 1. a lot of books came out that just focused on the oil spill, and i think that was a mistake because that story was told very well by the newspapers, and it's kind of one-dimensional. but if you can pull back and everyone knows the disaster's coming, it gives you a way to talk about the coast, and people know this bad thing's coming. and that allows them to really get invested in the coast. so -- >> when you t

how you were able to tackle a story that may not have a straight narrative. >> thank you for the kind words. those are always very long stories and i won't start and the absolute beginning but i will tell you that one of the reasons i was attracted to crazy horse was it didn't have any nuclear weapons in it. i was ready to move in a new direction and deal with new materials and i stumbled across it at the custer battlefield along the little bighorn river in 1994. first, started thinking as an adult about crazy horse. if any of you have been there and stood on custer hill you may have experienced what i did. you looked to the south and you see this string of white crosses coming across in your direction. you are almost on the top. almost at a place where a person might be able to determine the military underneath the attack. and sometimes in dozens or scores. it comes very real. looking over the countryside you see roughly what custer would have seen or the indians attacking him would have seen. the biggest change is a railroad line and a lawn that railroad line, several times a day a

. >> one of the narratives that runs through this book, particularly as he becomes more sick in the last part of it, you are the relentless, you are going to be okay, there is going to be hope, if i make enough contacts, i'll fix this. he is the almost unfailing despite his occasional request to you to help voice of it is not going to get better, deal with it, what did you learn over the course of that thing about the terrible tension between hope and reality acceptance when you are close to someone who has a terminal illness? >> that is such a hard question because the fact is they are so you. you are looking at yourself. it is impossible when your brother, sister, and 2 and a half years apart. i couldn't give what he was going through a reality. i couldn't see it for what with it was. it was catastrophic. now that i had my brother, i was desperate not to lose him. >> you hadn't had him until this. >> we had that cotten batting between us. we had a fierce attachment, when you are that locked together in this kind of angry, very strong bond, underneath that is the bond and the real attac

and i think what this will do it will expose part of that narrative. bin laden was hiding. he was isolated. though he had tremendous control over elements of the al qaeda network, he was living a very, very difficult life. and that will run counter to some of the narratives he has put out. >> they didn't include sound with these video clips. one of them we understand was unreleased, it was an unreleased message recorded last fall, october/november. do we know why it was not released and how significant it might have been? >> well, we don't yet there could be many reasons. the most obvious one is we don't want to put bin laden's voice out there because when you do that, that is what the followers are going to pay attention to. looking at the images and comparing and contrasting, and with his dyed beard, a very old man, obsessing with his image on tf t v trying to follow how they ae covering him. >> the other narrative he was very much in charge, that this was still a command and control center, if you will. it gets me to wonder why there has not been a follow on the 9/11 att

it is not just a corporation we also need to cooperate in to combat the narrative of extremism. the same problem that exists as what we have dealt with our country symmetry betty welcomes the death of the evil man but then take two steps back when do with other people's affairs? >> the problem with that philosophical view is that made with in the interconnected world. the idea we put the barrier of to say what happens in pakistan doesn't affect us i think is wrong. there are 1.4 million people who live in britain who travel fair and we were threatened from terrorism from the tribal lands and i am afraid this stop the world i want to get off foreign policy does not work anymore. >> mr. speaker what is a fully integrated interface community week hess seek to candidates standing for the conservative party will the prime minister agree with me that in my community yesterday's event will be holy war? >> i think the honorable gentleman makes the important point* it is important that all parties make sure they are fully representative of all parts of the community as we have learned it

. >> i think evan is right but having said this, there was this narrative that republicans were pushingecisive and he led by following. that is gone. >> the whole notion of being a weak leader is dispelled. they don't have the argument now, that he is soft on defense or military action. that is gone but that will not get him back into the white house. >> since the great depression, no president has run for re- election successfully with a 7.8% unemployment which is what is predicted by the cbo and bloomberg and others. if we look at 9 at, it will be a very competitive race. i don't care who emerges from the republican side. i think this did it destroyed the republican and narratives of criticism of the president, and certainly established his bonafides as someone willing to make a tough and important decision. but in the final analysis, it is going to be the economy in 2012. >> one other point, there is an entire generation of people who are in their early 20s now who grew up with osama bin laden was there hitler and for that is a bigger deal than it is for us old fogies. >> tampering w

but trust in the government is so low at this point that any time that evidence is withheld the narrative put forth by the government is really hard to believe but let's assume for a second to the general narrative of what occurred is true this is still an event of far greater political significance than tactical significance bin ladin was just one of many and not even near the most prominent excuses for our government to have hundreds of thousands of troops in the middle east those excuses will continue and sadly our failed policy in the middle east will probably continue i hope there's more this means we can come home reaction then this means we can intervene nor but i know what line we're going to get from the obama administration and i fear that this will be used not only to help get obama reelected but even be used to justify more foreign interventions so it is a put things in perspective for a moment what was the cost of executing and i don't leaven assuming the official government conspiracy theory is accurate flights passports flight training several hundred thousand tops the cost

>> jay, can i go back to the narrative one more time? when that assaulter entered the room, you said he was rushed by the woman, presumably, that is bin laden's wife? >> no, no, no. bin laden's wife was on the first floor. >> and she was shot in the leg. >> correct. >> and then on the second or the third -- >> yes, yes. >> that is not what the narrative says. >> is that a narrative or discrepancy. >> i apologize. even i am confused. in the room with bin laden was bin laden's wife. she rushed one of the u.s. assaulters and she was shot in the leg but not killed. a woman on the first floor was killed in the crossfire. >> okay. >> and bin laden's wife was unarmed as well? >> that is my understanding, yes. >> and there was no unelse in the room? >> we don't know that. >> following on the same thing yesterday, mr. brennan -- >> sorry, mark. >> i had one general thing, but i would be happy to continue on this. >> the question i had more broadly was do you think that the or is president obama concerned that having taken out such a visible symbo

kind of have this guy change course why is it that anybody that kind of veers from the accepted narrative is chastised the country is supposed to value free speach. we're actually that's not the case when you sense against the government and i was just utterly disgusted at about eleven thirty twelve o'clock that night when i was watching the live news and it was something like an extension of spring break outside the white house you had all these nineteen twenty twenty one year old kids running up to the camera going number one and chanting usa usa they don't know what happened on nine eleven they don't know where osama bin laden was or is or anything to do with the actual hope in the geo political relevance of what happened the possibility that it was a false flag attack and that's because we have dumbed down i pad instant gratification culture that is obsessed with dancing with the stars and american idol they've got to wake up they've got to get involved with what the government's doing may have to challenge official narratives they have to look at what's going on with this country now

develop the understanding of those higher technologies they're clearly understanding the war the narrative and this is where i think al qaeda to zero is going with this you have the taliban as one aspect of learning about this and i think the whole effort that includes anyone who has a bone to pick with this as i understand understood has learned how to use the narrative to their advantage and that's what this is all about do you think that we're going to lose i mean how do you think it's going to look let's say ten years from now technologies continue to develop as. in other offshoots around the world i also continue to learn how to use these new developing technologies there's a great scene in the movie life of brian or a jew who is writing romance go home you know is graffiti on a wall. you see the romans one although not in a good way i think this is were a lot of folks who are talking about how long we should stay in our selves in that region and why i'm opposed to a much smaller footprint i'm talking about maybe twenty thousand folks in afghanistan who just anti-terrorism and color b

those things they don't want to talk about so that makes it takes decision time and frankly the narrative has to be true. does not suffer from any sort of coordination issue of that they don't care if it's true or not if it serves their cause we're going to say it and also be have no need for slowing it down regarding let's make sure that we understand what the message is they know what the message is get put out there and that puts us often on the defensive we being nato in the us so of course we've seen examples here in the u.s. we have our jihadi james we've seen similar examples in the u.k. as well but is there any way to even now how much propaganda efforts this information war actually feeds into recruiting people or how much of it is just the simple fact that we're occupying muslim countries abroad and fighting a war i think it's there clearly there's things like the video they used to recruit people but i think it's the latter i think really they're right now trying to put out a message to basically affect our decision makers here much like any other media war you want to fight pe

>> well, look, this is part of a long-standing white conservative narrative that people of color are getting things they don't deserve because of affirmative action or racial handouts. so either donald trump is the most uninformed individual in the western world because he doesn't know how his comments fit that narrative or he knows full well what he's doing and is deliberately pushing the buttons of racial resentment. this narrative has been around a long time and seems like whenever a person of color attains a high position, whether it is pat buchanan or donald trump, rush limbaugh, whoever it is, they question whether it was deserved. they don't give out this at harvard law but pilling names out of the had. you have to earn that. the fact that he inherited millions of dollars from his daddy, they would question anyone on what they have learned with the definition of irony. >> buck davis? >> this first thing we are talking about the influence of money and power donald trump has in the country. he's a leader whether you like him or not. he changes minds. with power comes responsibil

there was an attempt by the white house to try to control the narrative.o need to have the facts. this was not a lengthy operation. it was about 40 minutes. so i think that while, you know, they get huge points for what actually happened, there have been some unflattering headlines. that said, most people want remember that, they'll remember that bin laden is dead. >> as a result, the new york times/cbs news poll shows his approval jumped up. as we look ahead to 18 months or so from now, does this give him a long-term boost ahead of the elections? >> it helps with the confidence numbers and concerns that the president seemed like something of a foreign policy nafe. this helps him toward that underlying argument. in terms of the long-term benefits, i think it is too early to tell. there is little question this election is going to ride heavily on the economy. that's what the republicans have been hitting him on for days, even this week. that's what will continue and there is no clear answer whether this gives him a bump in that area. >> president bush 43 ke

the media have created this narrative. he goes out without a tie or to a nascar race, the press questions it. >> wait, but i think the press is questioning it because they do know romney. romney did a complete roundabout on gay rights. i remember the '94 campaign. i worked on that campaign. he was claiming he was better on gay rights than ted kennedy. not today he doesn't claim that. this week he claimed he was for the auto bailout when he was against it two years ago. the media knows -- >> a policy basis because he changed his view. >> in his track record and you hear it from republicans, too. >> there is plenty to criticize on romney's record if you want to go after flip-flops and authentici authenticity. the problem is the press has decided that's the narrative about romney and they're slotting things that don't belong there into that story line like what he's wearing at a particular event. that's the problem. just as when the reporters decided that gore was an inauthentic figure or he had a problem with the truth, ever

. >> why is the narrative about what actually happened changing almost by the hour? >> it's interesting, some of the details about whether bin laden was armed and whether he used his wife as a human shield and whether she was killed. buchanan contribute you can attribute them to the confusion in the moment, but that maybe they are significant in the moment. what's happening now is the u.s. is trying to punch a myth of bin laden. america will try to control the narrative of what happened and say the changes are a bit embarrassing for washington. >> when a navy seal team went into the compound, was its a capture and kill mission at that point? >> there have been conflicting reports about this. at one point it was said by an american official that he would have been given a chance to surrender. in a sense, i think the outcome of him being killed is always going to happen. the chances of not wanting to go live were always there. he's always told his bodyguards that he wanted to be killed rather than captured alive. for the americans as well, capturing him alive would be

say well they could photoshop it just just do it just get it out there and as best you can fix the narrative say this is what happened and let it go you know the other thing to the last argument here aside from perhaps you know being scared that there might be some type of reaction to a song but not intending to releasing the photos and they're also saying that there's an mmog moral argument here that we don't need to parade him around like a trophy there's no need to see these gruesome images but you know i think a lot of people have argued only recent days to that how moral is it to go wage war to go assassinate somebody and then not be able to see what you've done to him to realize the consequences i agree with your point completely this is done in the name of the american people there was so as bad as is it there's going to this is it's done just own up to it secondly president obama and others were calling for the release of photos related to prisoner abuse so i don't understand how a prisoner abuse photos or any more was you know bad but having a good terrorist who clearly even a lot o

this is a big part of the foreign-policy narrative. this is a tense part of the narrative that the foreign- policy apparatus has to deal with now. this is likely to become much more so after the capture and killing of osama bin laden. >> i want to talk about pakistan and the u.s. some might regard this as a softball pitch across the plate. it is not. you mentioned this is your 25th anniversary at npr. npr has been under a vicious attack over the last few months. it is worth noting that npr is the only network of all the networks that has picked up listeners over these last few years in this country and around the world. what is it about the reported that npr is doing that has people tuning in to hear what you are doing? >> i think that people want to hear things in depth. first of all, they want to know what is going on in the world, not just the u.s. national public radio has made a huge commitment to expanding its foreign news coverage. that is answering a call to the listeners that they are telegraphing to us. they want to hear abou

and i think there is certainly a narrative in there about how, you know, certainly goldman sachs has a reputation of being powerful and envy on every other firm on wall street. i worked for wall street for 17 years. no matter which firmed i worked at, we envied goldman sachs, even though i worked at a bunch of firms, some of like goldman, some not, they wanted to be like goldman. they make so much money, they have the history of people who their alumni getting important positions in washington. you mention bob rubin and hank paulsen, two others. even in the financial crisis that we've come through, the 2007 two 2008 crisis, goldman was able to see trouble coming and do something about it. they made a big bet against the mortgage market that paid off in terms of billions of dollars for goldman that every other firm did not see and just pretended didn't exist and basically all went down the tubes. but i think what you do get out of this story is how often goldman found itself in trouble, and how skilled it was of getting out of trouble. and so that was probably, you know, -- don't forg