nato particularly the united states. that nato can't just say would you like. to see we do have a un go ahead jim what what you will have in libya if nato succeeds or half succeed is a nato peace and it will be that kind of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived by the libyan people because nato will have presented itself to nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty eighty percent of military spending the three nato powers in charge of this invention are the three biggest military spenders all three of the four we know you know this result and there's a really big there in disarray as it is that you're in surrounded in recife that employees like their military force shall be the decisive factor that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian an alternation he's a very good wishes to sort of there was an incoherent by then so you have to know your ambition of being the west and to america you know if you're looking at what you align yourself the whole your moral values and support people that want freedo

succeed is a nato peace and it will be that kind of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived by the libyan people because nato will have presented itself to nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty eighty percent of military spending the three nato powers in charge of this invention are the three biggest military spenders all three of the four we know you know it's regarded as a really big there in disarray as it is and you're in surrender in risotto for the employees like their military force shall be the decisive factor that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian intonation is avoiding did which is to sort of that was an incoherent by then so you have to know your ambition of being the west and to america you're not really looking at what you allow yourself the whole your moral values and support people that want freedom you know would you have allowed them to go to being massacred just because you know that it is you know you mentioned to people and i'd like i'd like to ask amara question i mean it intervention

nato particularly the united states. but nato took longer to see. stanley due to the un go ahead jim go ahead what what you will have in libya if nato succeed the heart succeeds is a nato peace and it will be that kind of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived by the libyan people because nato will have presented itself a nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty eight percent of military spending the three nato powers in charge of this invention of the three biggest military spenders all three of the four billion it's regarded as a really big there in disarray as it is and you're in surrender as a result of their employees like their military force shall be the decisive factor that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian and it's an easy and he's a very good wishes to sort them out and listening to is our why there is no you have to. answer worse than anti america you know if you're looking at what you allow yourself the whole your moral values here and support people who want freedom you know would you allow the

will have in libya if nato succeeds or half the city is a nato peace and it will be that kind of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived by the libyan people because nato will present itself a nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty percent of military spending the three nato powers in charge of this invention are the three biggest military spenders all three of the four go you know it's regarded as a good they're in disarray as it is and you're in surrender in recently as well is that their military force shall be the decisive factor that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian want an easy and he's a very good wishes to sort them out listen and by then he is all you have to know your mission of being worse than i am to america you know if you look at what you align yourself the whole your moral values and support people who want freedom you know would you allow them to go to be massacred this could cause you know that it is you know you mentioned to people and i'd like i'd like to ask mark question i mean if this interven

of conditional peace it will not be a peace arrived at by the libyan people because nato will present itself a nato nato encompasses something like between seventy five and eighty eight percent of military spending the three nato powers in charge of this invention of the three biggest military spenders all three of the four billion it's regarded as a good deal there in disarray as it is and in surround as a result of the employees i think their military force shall be the decisive factor that is their overriding interest so that they can intervene in the arab spring for example so that the libyan people will not do what the gyptian and so needy and he's avoiding has to sort them out listening to his i don't buy this or you have to know your ambition of being worse than america you're not really looking at what you allow yourself the higher moral values here and support people who want freedom you know would you allow them to go out and be massacred just because you know that it is you know you mentioned to people like i'd like to school mark question i mean if this intervention the international crimina

nato. nato is successfully pushing the taliban out of places like this. in helmand, that's because 10,000 british troops were reinforced by 20,000 americans. that deployment has now peaked. david cameron said in kabul that progress was good enough to withdraw more british troops. they will make an announcement tomorrow. it will probably be just a few hundred soldiers. by 2015, there will be no british combat forces here at all. >> i think the british people deserve a deadline. we have been in helmand province since 2006, in afghanistan since early 2001. i believe the afghan government, the afghan people, the afghan army deserve to have a deadline so they can plan properly towards a transition. >> so, it is over to the afghan forces. in the village, the police seem willing to help themselves to food, just like the taliban. we did find the taliban ammunitions-in a melon patch -- ammunition stash in a melon patch. the soldiers have not gone away. they were sniping on a mission that we joined. there is still a big problem with corruption. the question now, will the afghans be able to do the job the british soldiers have been doing as they start to leave? >> for more on these challenges and calls for an even quicker drawdown of u.s. troops, i spoke earlier with a former adviser to the u.s. military in afghanistan. so, seth, have david cameron asking the taliban to stop fighting, put down their weapons, join the political process. what do you think the chances are that might happen? >> there are elements of the taliban and other insurgent groups that are willing to talk about this option. they have been fighting for three decades in afghanistan. people are tired. i think right now what we're seeing is some elements willing, some elements unwilling. based on the fact that many of them believe they are winning right now, that the u.s. and other allies are leaving, i think it is unlikely that they will cut a deal now. not wait it out -- why not wait it out? >> to what extent is the taliban looking at things like this letter-signing, seeing the political will disappearing, and thinking, why should we negotiate? why not sit things out? >> this to the conflict within the u.s. -- and they see the political conflict within the u.s. they say that we should be committed to this fight. rc not a robust discussion. the fact that we have a range -- they are seeing a robust discussion. the fact that we have arranged -- we have someone making a case for getting a completely by 2012, if not sooner. that is certainly seen as a victory by the taliban. >> you know the discussions the taliban are having. what is the best way to join more of them to join the political process within the timeframe that nato forces will remain? how do we pull more of them into the political process? >> i think their are two ways. one is to defeat them on the battlefield. in areas where nato and afghan forces are fighting them, including local forces, did defeat them on the battlefield. we have seen them willing to -- to defeat them on the battlefield. we have seen them willing to reintegrate in those areas. secondly, more broadly, put more pressure on pakistan, the biggest outside government supporter of the taliban. if they were to suddenly decide they wanted to cut a deal, that would put pressure on the taliban. unfortunately, we are not seeing across-the-board big three in all locations, nor we seeing pakistan put pressure on them -- a cross-led dashboard victory -- across-the-board- victory in all locations, nor are we seeing pakistan put pressure on them. we're seeing the taliban lose ground in the south. i suspect part of that is contesting areas that the taliban does -- >> thank you for coming in.

nato is to keep the russians out, the germans down, and the americans and. in one sentence he encapsulated the entire purpose of what nato was. so common data goes through the cold war. we end the cold war without nato firing a shot. the soviet union collapses. then the question was what to do with nato. in those times -- and by the way, for this book i talked to over 50 people on both sides of the atlantic. i talked to probably all of the key military leaders from the european union. a lot of the political and military folks here in the united states. that is the background of the research that i have been doing for this book. so, anyway, the soviet union collapses. we still have made no. the question was, what should we do with them? and in that time people just didn't think it through. what they wanted to do was make sure that all these newly free countries of central europe and eastern europe were all given some form of stability. the former security adviser makes a very wonderful point by saying you couldn't leave these countries in the middle with russia on one side and the west on the other in limbo. they all wanted to join nato. and so we started observing those countries. nato went from a v

nato intervention in libya today. you know later in the program won't you quote some of them it figures within nato or bickering among themselves and pointing fingers i guess they didn't think about it too far ahead when they started this campaign go ahead. well nato always goes into places as i know very well from from previous experience later interventions for its own reasons there's no concern there for any opposition however marginal or however morally justified they may or may not be nato is an aggressive alliance which operates on the basis of that it wants to place its. military in key areas of the world command and control resources and territory that's what it's there for it's not some kind of moral creature it's a beast really and when the nato powers can't make money and propaganda work for them and undermine governments abroad then they move on to the military machine and the propaganda the also across the stories the indictment by tame courts which should know better and all of these things have been done in many other countries and they've been done so leave you now and the experience of all the libyan people as well i think we would have had a short conflict here perhaps there was a case for pressuring colonel gadhafi to listen to

that this war starts very quickly indeed but of course that isn't what nato wants because nato wants that the usual suspects within nato i should say the ones who attack everywhere i always use the same excuses want to do the same thing they did elsewhere here they want to occupy libya they want to get their compliant puppet government in which will give them cheap deals good contracts they want they got it all planned out and the libyan people will be the victims if they allow this war to continue and that will include the rebel side for years sounds really interesting to me is it really iraq they didn't plan for after the invasion it seems like in this case we really have everything planned except for winning the war what do you think of that. well yes if there's one thing is that the americans and some of its allies have got to learn from the experiences that they saw in somalia not to major in afghanistan and iraq it's failed miserably in those areas and if it continues in the fashion it is with libya we're likely to go down that same route i think the concern all around is how do you ensure that you maintain that

nato countries. out of the twenty eight nato members only eight are actively participating in libya with civilian deaths to which nato recently admitted to a shortage of weapons and the ever relentless more market duffy is still at the helm the coalition may be facing just the beginning of its problems. berlin is in a tough spot on the one hand it has. disappointed nato by refusing to support the mission in libya in march on the other by agreeing to supply bombs it may now lose friends in all other high places and whatever the real reasons for its contradictory policy may be germany could find that by trying to please everyone it may end up pleasing no one in the ghost court. and now to discuss the significance of the johnnies latest move when our joined by political blogger ross off. thank you for joining us today so germany's now joined the call for that is now a funneling weapons into libya certainly ever vasile from its original stance are we seeing a more united nato front and will it help and bring an end to the conflict. the united nato front will not bring an end of a conflict as we know nato defense minister

nato its relations with libyan rebels will live on what's next for the country. can. start. following welcome across top gun control about libya's stalemate in the sand and nato bombing campaign and aid to anti kadafi rebels have only hardened political facts on the ground western intervention was intended to last a few weeks now is open ended instead of dislodging khadafi nato allies are left to bicker among themselves. can. start. to cross the nato mission in libya i'm joined by io johnson in london he's the founder and director of viewpoint africa also in london we have marco gas a key is a political analyst an expert on south east european affairs and in barcelona we cross to omar archer he is a lecturer in politics of the modern arab world at the university of exit are all right gentlemen this is crosstalk that means you can jump in anytime you want omar i'd like to go to you first in barcelona how would you assess nato's operations in libya to date because depending on the news source you want to read it stalemate it's quagmire. we've coming across reports that rebels committing human rights. violations they're not looking so pretty anymore and it's just basically a civil war that has come to a stalemate so how would you assess nato's operations today. well that's a civil resistance campaign to educate to ship it somehow turned into an on conflict beca

nato is causing the region so says. a spokesman for the british civilians for peace in libya didn't. i think really fundamentally there's been a problem the way nato the nato nations and their media have related to these so-called rebels i mean these rebels have been conducting mass lynchings of black people throughout the first several weeks and months of this crisis and i raised this directly in press press conferences and the answer was what silence it was uncommon in the media before because this does not fit the narrative since the nine hundred ninety nine need for what russian against yugoslavia which was we are conducting these wars not for geopolitical control and domination of monopolization and mineral wealth but for humanitarian reasons so how can it fit the narrative of these rebels which nato and the nato countries are supporting lynching black people or conducting all the atrocities they can using the gadhafi side of conducting but actually the rebels are conducting these things so it doesn't fit the narrative. now at some other top stories from around the world the sound computer hackers have reportedly cracked and they terms internet securi

nato the nato nations and their media have related to these so-called rebels i mean these rebels have been conducting mass lynchings of black people throughout the first several weeks and months of this crisis and i raised this directly in press press conferences and the answer was what silence it was uncovered in the media before because this does not fit the narrative since the nine hundred ninety nine nato aggression against yugoslavia which was we are conducting these wars not for geopolitical control and domination of mineral wealth but for humanitarian reasons so how can it fit the narrative of these rebels which nato and the nato countries are supporting lynching black people or conducting all the atrocities they accuse in the gadhafi side of conducting but actually the rebels are conducting these things so it doesn't fit the narrative. without some other top stories from around the world this hour computer hackers have reportedly cracked nato's internet security system access to restricted data the group calling themselves none of us posted a tweet with a fall break into into restricted documents is believed to contain information of the advances operations in the balkans the breach is in response to the recent arrest of twenty one people use of cyber hacking the movement is known to be sympathetic to wiki leaks and it's found in the songs and there's already attacks the websites o

mineral wealth but for humanitarian reasons so how can it fit the narrative of these rebels which nato and the nato countries are supporting lynching black people or conducting all the atrocities they cues in the gadhafi side of conducting but actually the rebels are conducting these things so it doesn't fit the narrative. wow happening elsewhere in the well today much of videos been released from the central syrian city of homs under a time from security and isis to say government troops were firing machine guns and dragging people from their homes in a series of arrests becomes a security is being beefed up in the capital and against president assad police killed thirty two people across the country last friday during the largest protest of the anti-government uprising began in march. and they've loaded double decker bus which bus into flames in china has killed forty one people see examples he managed to escape were taken to hospital with one said to be in a critical condition it's still unclear what caused the blaze an investigation is under way serious challenge accidents are frequent in china

committed by the rebels are swept under the rug to support nato's cause in the region i think really fundamentally there's been a problem the way nato the nato nations and the media have related to this these so-called rebels i mean these rebels have been conducting mass lynchings of black people throughout the first several weeks and months of this crisis and i raised this directly in press press conferences and the answer was what silence it was uncovered in the media before because this does not fit the narrative since the nine hundred ninety nine nato aggression against yugoslavia which was we are conducting these wars not fool geo political control and domination of mccloy's ational mineral wealth but for humanitarian reasons so how can it fit the narrative of these rebels which nato and the nato countries are supporting lynching black people who are conducting all the atrocities they cues in the gadhafi side of conducting but actually the rebels are conducting these things so it doesn't fit the narrative of. to you now to some other stories making headlines across the globe the u.s. has announced it will send aid to famine stricken som

mineral wealth but for humanitarian reasons so how can it fit the narrative of these rebels which nato and the nato countries are supporting lynching black people or conducting all the atrocities they accuse in the gadhafi side of conducting but actually the rebels are conducting these things so it doesn't fit the narrative. ok so all the stores around the world that used to have told me naysayers internet security system and assess risk to data the group calling themselves a normal space to a tweet with the fall label they say restricted the documents believed to contain information on the alliance's operations in the balkans it's all the breaches in response to the recent arrest. accused of cyber hacking the anonymous movement is known to be sympathetic to wiki leaks and its founder julian the songs and has already attacked the web sites of major companies and government agencies. forty one people have perished in a bus fire at the central chinese a province of had nine six passengers including the driver being treated for serious injuries the vehicle carrying flammable materials burst into flame

mineral wealth but for humanitarian reasons so how can it fit the narrative of these rebels which nato and the nato countries are supporting lynching black people who are conducting all the atrocities they accuse him of gadhafi side of conducting but i think the rebels are conducting these things so it doesn't fit the narrative . well there we're all around the clock but you can always find more stories on our web site at www dot com here's some of what we've prepared for you to this day russia is pumping up its military right neutrally basement ranks and jets complete with problem missoni it's nice to meet contention in. trying to direct taking pictures of russian cossacks performing incredible stunts. and going to be in full on our web sites on a thing. which if. specialists have started raising the sunken passenger ship dog area from the bottom of the volga river russia's central republic. it went down in minutes almost two weeks ago drowning one hundred fourteen people a complex operation involves cautioning refloating the vessel pumping out water before telling it to a floating dock with her e