a norman mailer a lot of broad bureaucrats.a sophisticated writer who makes important contribution to policy. >> liberating structures. every time you read the phrase it is a kleenex. it is richard john neuhaus laying structure to these conversations. i'm so glad you asked me that writer -- that question because as a writer and critic myself i watch the governance of a writer finding his voice and terms. >> when did he find it? >> i would say 1984. i would say a large part of that was his good friend peter. peter. they were going to write that together. that phrase to make a public square was kind of frenzy. the naked public square. >> by the naked public square, he means a public life that is aggressively and intentionally shorn of any reference to a specifically judeo-christian argument for who we are how we merge in order our lives. but when that happened and he got that phrase which kicked up in the public consciousness in the middle of the 84 election, when that happened his his prose, i think, finally countdown. in the 60

you describe in a very interestingly how he began as a norman mailer imitated, very macho a lot of namedropping and then he actually evolved into a more sophisticated writer who actually made some important contributions to policy. mediating structures, i did know that was his phrase. >> every time you read the phrase religion in public life this is richard john neuhaus. i'm so glad you asked that question because as a writer and critic myself part of what really interests me in this was to watch the development of a writer, a writer finding his voice. >> when did they find a? >> i was in 1984 naked public square big medium structures and spoke to about people i was a large part had to do with his good friend peter berger and their ability to write that together. but that phrase the naked public square, this kind of the frames the -- >> what does he mean by that? the naked public square? >> by the naked public square he means a public life that is aggressively and intentionally shorn of any reference to a specifically judeo-christian argument for who we are how we flourish how we order

but i wanted to -- that began the book with an excerpt from norman mailer's book where he talks about how disease has a life of its own. this applies to all pathology. cancer has a life and an intention and a mind all its own. all we see when we look the symptoms and exterior parts of it and we look at his resume and how to exist in the world and what it does in terms of how it manifests itself in the skin and the interior parts of a human being but it has its own intentions. it has its own way of being in the world. i was interested to note come to think about and anthropomorphize ptsd and drama as this idea is this being in the world that enters the body and its agenda on us. in particular i compare it to a virus and i want to be careful because i think we have over medicalized ptsd. i don't look at as strep throat. >> host: is contagious. >> guest: it is in some ways. depending on how you treat the metaphor does have is contained just a aspect and when you talk about the cycle of violence and what freud called the repetition compulsion you find war veterans, wars are often infreque

but i began the book with an excerpt from norman mailer's book a time of our time where we talk about how the disease has a life of its own. and this applies to all. cancer has a life and an intention. all the cds we look at the symptoms and the exterior parts of it and the resume of how it exists in the world in terms of how it manifests itself in the interior parts of the human being that has its own intentions and has its own way of being in the world. so i was interested to know if it is this being in the world that enters the body and expects its agenda and in particular i compare it to a virus and i want to be careful because i think that the over medical eyes. i don't look at it in terms of its treatment or its conceptualization. >> host: contagious? >> guest: in some ways depending on how you treat the metaphor it does have its contagious aspects to it and that's what is interesting when you talk about the cycle of violence and what they called the repetition. you find the war veterans are often even frequently waged to fix or to adjust or improve upon the legacy of what was t