. >> who made grover norquist king? >> the people have made this commitment not to raise taxes. >> if you raise tax rates, that is violating a tax pledge. >> 232 of the 240 have signed the no tax increase pledge. >> americans for tax reform would oppose any effort to weaken, reduce, or not continue the 2001-2003 bush tax cuts. >>> rumors swept the capital this morning that the president and speaker of the house were close to an agreement on a deal, a deal that sent waves of panic through washington. democrats and republicans, who assumed their side must have given up too much. in order to strike such a deal. faced with a possible muteiny in his caucus, speak are boehner used a method that no speaker has used before to calm his troops. he tweeted. one word. false. meaning, there is no deal. the speaker then said this in a press conference. >> i believe that the congress must act before august 2. and i hope that we're prepared to do that. i'll keep my discussions with the president between the president and myself. it wou

grover norquist.mitchell has his story. >> reporter: grover norquist is a behind-the-scenes power broker who's never held office. a self-described reagan republican who even tries his hand at standup. >> bourbon, neat, no water, my rule, never drink water, dick cheney tortures people with it. >> reporter: but about taxes, he is deadly serious. >> the folks who have fought for tax increases after promising not to, and then down here in blue, across here, are the ones who are defeated. >> reporter: for 24 years he's been getting candidates, almost all republican, to sign a simple pledge. >> read my lips. no new taxes. >> reporter: republican lawmakers remember how that worked out, defeated after one term. so 236 have taken the vow. >> grover went around and said, sign this. any guy that would sign something before he or she confronts the issue has really sold part of their soul. >> reporter: this week he told the "washington post" letting the bush tax cuts expire at the end of next year would not violat

grover norquist. i'll speak with him in a few minutes. first, background on who grover norquist is. >> a fascinating man. got a start in politics early. at 12 hopped on a train, headed to boston to volunteer nor richard nixon and held on to his conservative values since. he believes in small government, lower taxes, limited government services. >> that's mitt romney. michele bachmann. >> reporter: in this black behinder our signed pledges from the gop presidential candidate, grover norquist, president and founder of americans for tax reform, has secured their signatures as well as those of most of the congressional republicans. all committing to not raise taxes. hundreds of names with the originals safely stored away. where are the pledges? everybody wants to know. where are the pledges? >> we keep the original pledges inside a vault that can't be burned, a safe vault, but keep multiple copies. we want to promise voters and elected officials that their pledge will be there forever. >> reporter: in some ways this father of two young toddle

grover norquist is also a tough customer. for years that any time republicans make deals with democrats, their democrats will shun the deal. he said publicly, quote, bipartisanship is a form of -- very, very tough language. he does not mind using the whip on people who get out of line. >> i've been in washington a long time. the frustration level right now, enormous, and the stakes clearly enormous as well. listen to what john mccain said today. i'll play the clip. >> my kids and my grandkids, i am very worried about because we have spent ourselves into a hole that we can only make very tough decisions and clearly we are not making those decisions here in washington, d.c. it's hard trying to do the large work in the city of satan. >> he used that line before, but it's still a very powerful line, david. >> it sure is. i think what we're seeing, wolf, is the disfunctionality of washington which is usually below the service, is now in stark review for all americans to see. we've gone through this a couple times before in recent

let's visit this grover norquist issue. i think on tuesday in an interview with your "washington post" editorial board, grover norquist, the man famous for his anti-tax pledge, said that not renewing the bush tax cuts would not violate his pledge. listen to some of that audio released. >> not continuing a tax cut is not technically a tax increase. >> stow does not violate the pledge. >> we wouldn't hold it that way. it would be a very bad thing to do. it would raise taxes from where they are today. >> who don't follow the inside baseball the way you and i eat, drink and sleep it. what is the significance of grover norquist saying that? >> for people who don't know, grover norquist since 1985 has run a group called americans for tax reform pap d.c.-based group that does a lot of thing. basically, to hold the line on no tax increases for republicans. every time someone runs for office, grover and his group get them to sign a pledge essentially saying they will not raise taxes or revenue increases at all. the result of that is

democrats, including chuck schumer, wasted little time pouncing on norquist's remarks. >> grover norquist, the hall monitor, when it comes to enforcing the republican party's anti-tax pledge, has given house republicans a hall pass. they should use it. this is a coded message from one of the truest believers in the republican party that it's time for conservatives to step back from the brink. >> apparently norquist is rescinding that hall pass. he quickly walked back his comments during an interview with msnbc. >> there's certain things you could do technically and not violate the pledge but that the general public would clearly understand it's a tax increase. so i can be clear, americans for tax reform would oppose any effort to weaken, reduce or not continue the 2001/2003 bush tax cuts. >> and by not extending the bush tax cuts lawmakers could potentially bring in as much as $4 trillion in new tax revenue. >>> european leaders have agreed to a bold plan to help greece get out of its debt, announcing a new bailout for the country worth an estimated, get this, $157 billion. the deal's imp

well, norquist is sort of regrouping.e called him yesterday. >> i think he got some calls. >> i think he got come calls. norquist walked back his comment during an interview with msnbc. >> there are certain things you could do technically and not violate the pledge but that the general public would clearly understand is a tax increase, so i can be clear, americans for tax reform would oppose any effort to weaken, reduce, or not continue the 2001-2003 bush tax cuts. >> wait, wait. but -- and then he wrote this -- it happens to be in today's "new york times" by grover norquist, so i think he's regrouping. can i read it? >> yeah. >> contrary to the hopes of some that i ham somehow softening the pledge, it is stronger and more important than ever, but ultimately the pledge is only one expression of the republican's commitment to shrinking the side of the federal government. republican leaders have repeatedly and clearly stated that they will not allow a net tax hike to be imposed on the american people as part of a debt ceili

what has been the impact of grover norquist and that no tax pledge on all these negotiations?> well, it's been very significant, because republicans have taken the position that i think is out of step with most of the american people, that you cannot raise one penny of revenue from closing corporate tax loopholes, whether it's oil companies or corporate jets or whatever it is, you can't do that for the purposes of reducing the deficit, and the president put on the table a plan that calls for $3 in cuts to every $1 in revenue to try and get to a ten-year $4 trillion plan but because of grover norquist's pledge, republicans seem to be more worried about him than they are about reducing the deficit. that has been an impediment. we're hoping that maybe we can see some breakthrough there. you need a breakthrough there if you're going to get a balanced approach and you need a balanced approach if you're going to get a big deal. >> is nancy pelosi, are you democrats going to be able to provide enough democratic votes to help john boehner out as he tries to pull this together, even de

grover norquist the author of this. it goes back to 1986, i don't have to tell you. i sat down with grover norquist today and asked why the elimination as scheduled of the bush tax cuts would not -- would violate the pledge? he is saying as he said today again in "the new york times," read my lips no new taxes that it would violate the pledge. this was his answer. >> one just has to recognize that in changing the 2001, 2003 rules are you dramatically increasing revenue. you're increasing the total cost to government. >> you're not changing the rules were set to expire. there's no change. you're not voting for anything. you're just letting something happen. >> if congress -- if congress -- to get into hypotheticals can martians came and took everybody away and something lapsed -- but congress is sitting here meeting. congress wants to spend the money. the challenge is how do we reduce the overspending as part of an agreement on a debt ceiling, tax increases are off the table. >> what do you say to grover norquist about his claim that letting the bush tax cuts expire i

grover norquist. thanks for coming on. get the people informed about your pledge, we'll read it. we have it now. i pledge to the tax players whatever direct or state to the american people i will, one, oppose any or all efforts to increase the margin 7 income tax rates for business and/or businesses and oppose debt reduction or eliminations or credits unless matched dollar for dollar by further reductions in tax rates. how successful have you been in nailing down republicans in this pledge? >> sure. offering this pledge to candidates for the house and senate and president for the last 24 years. today 235 members of the house have signed the pledge that are sitting in the house of representatives. 41 senators. so a majority of house members and 41 senators. 1,200 state legislators, 13 governors. >> this is the first time it's had sort of the drama as you know. you're probably happy about this. a lot of people aren't happy. explain why you are willing to hold people to this tax pledge even if it means at least between now an

grover norquist, when we come back in a moment. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. >> in a bit of you a surprise this there a fluly financial bureau. passing over elizabeth warren who was the driving force of course behind the bureau's creation and has supported passionate by many on the pro resive left. with warren's strong opposition and talk she could run for the senate -- heard it myself up in massachusetts -- against the new senator, scott brown. we'll be right back. [ dr. ling ] i need to get the results from the m.r.i. see if the blood work is ready. review ms. cooper's history. and i want to see katie before she goes home. [ male announcer ] with integrated healthcare solutions from dell, every patient file is where dr. ling needs it. now she can spend more time with patients and less time on paperwork. ♪ dell. the power to do more. ♪ somewhere in america, a city comes to life. it moves effortlessly, breathes easily. it flows with clean water. it makes its skyline greener and its population healthier. all to become the ki

please welcome grover norquist.eers and applause) >> good to see you, steven. >> stephen: three years, something like that? >> exactly about three years, yeah. >> stephen: good to see you again. now, sir, for some of the people who may not know what americans for tax reform is, explain what the purpose of your organization is. >> first of all, we ask all candidates for office to sign a pledge not to raise taxes then we let voters know who's willing to make that commitment and who does or doesn't live by it. >> stephen: how long have you been doing that? >> 20 years. >> stephen: really. >> yup. >> stephen: and you've got it on record. is this the pledge right here? >> that's the pledge. >> stephen: so they take this pledge and you've got a record of them having taken the pledge and if they back out on this pledge? >> well.... >> stephen: it's hammer time! >> the american people, they're actual voters. the pledge is not to americans for tax reform, it's the the voters of their state and the american people. and people

within hours norquist told my colleague chris jansing this right here on msnbc on jansing & company. >> i can be clear, americans for tax reform would oppose any effort to weaken, reduce or not continue the 2001-2003 bush tax cuts and any changes of the taxes should be kept separate from the budget deal. >> moments ago, the post released audio of norquist supporting their editorial, but not before norquist's apparent change of heart or philosophy was echoed by house speaker john boehner who stepped in front of the cameras and acknowledging the magnitude of the moment said there is no deal and not even a t temporary one if those tax cuts to the wealthy expire. >> listen, i have never voted to raise taxes and i don't intend to. >> last night boehner hosted a closed door meeting with select republican freshman in a capitol hill hideaway and one aide described it as a pizza and beer meet and greet and one reporter said he could smell the scent of cigarette smoke coming from the room. we are told there was no agenda, but that is likely with the high stakes game being played right now. and

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this means the bush tax cuts could expire without drawing the ire of norquist and his crowd.tic senator chuck schumer jumped all over it. >> it's a recognition from norquist that the house republicans are increasingly isolated and have painted themselves to a corner. grover norquist, hall monitor when it comes to the anti-tax pledge has given house republicans a hall pass. >> but then norquist tried to reverse himself with chris jansing on this station today. >> there are things the public would clearly understand tax increase. americans for tax reform would oppose any effort to weaken, reduce or not continue the 2001 2001-2003 bush tax cuts. >> but "the washington post" has audio of his original comments. >> that's right, not continuing a tax cut is not technically a tax increase. >> so it does not violate the pledge? >> we wouldn't hold it that way. a lot of the guys on the hill do. >> so even now he now wants to deny it, norquist was trying to give house republicans a way out. they certainly need a way out for the good of the country. new. hey ! chocolate, vanilla or straw

comes out and says no no i didn't mean it all of a sudden boehner says no deal so is grover norquist the man behind the curtain for the republicans and is gauche well he certainly has an enormous amount of influence we saw a couple of months back a little bit of pushback from senate republicans against norquist no tax very ever under any circumstances pledge you know with this whole well being the job creators i mean i think we have to understand that that's not an economic argument it's a political argument designed to get the. the polling data that you presented in your opening you know they can't just say that they have those tax increases for the wealthiest americans and even closing loopholes on corporate jets and as the obama administration likes to talk about they have to say that this will come with dire unanticipated consequences and that's what this this narrative this talking point is really about after world war two our debt was as i recall it one hundred twenty six percent of g.d.p. it was substantially higher than it is today relative g.d.p. and yet we spend our way out

grover norquist joins us. your lobbying group has gotten more than 230 house republicans and nearly 40 gop senators to sign a pledge never to support an increase in taxes. and you warn those who break your pledge will pay a political price. are you the reason that we don't have a debt ceiling increase right now? >> well, as you know, the pledge, the taxpayer protection pledge, is a pledge that candidates for office and house and senate members and presidents signed to the voters of their state and to the nation. the pledge isn't to americans for tax reform. it isn't to me. the american taxpayers have asked and elected a majority in the house of representatives and 41 members of the senate who ran, committing not to raise taxes. >> right. >> our friends, president obama, has said he won't try and solve the problem he created with his spending -- >> wait, wait, wait. what do you mean he created with his spend? you didn't just suggest our budget problem is because of president obama, did you, grover? >> well, see

on monday norquist everybody signed norquist pledge so who's really in charge of the republican party main or is it is it limbaugh's that norquist is who. i think no one single person is in charge of the republican party as it should be but i think boehner is right now the leader of the face of the party when it deals with that because she actions you know you really think so eric cantor no it's clearly not cantor it is clearly banner look the republicans has different only he still and republicans are different people who are strong in different issues paul ryan is obviously their go to guy and inside on that reform entitlement programs john boehner has been the last week with markedly successful at a cheap in what his stated goals are to cheat or to cheating what he set out to achieve has he is what success is he had every single time he says something everybody walks away he hasn't had it there are no tax increases on the table now president obama is not in the negotiating room anymore by his own doing but partly because of beginners doing the point and you would ever believe that'

grover norquist, president of americans for tax reform. tax enforcers in the gop for over a quarter century. he's gotten 234 house republicans, and 41 gop senators to sign his pledge not to raise taxes. he's the reason we see republicans saying, the same thing over and over again. >> we should not be raising taxes. >> now is not the time to raise taxes. >> i've never voted to raise taxes and i don't intend to. >> josh, isn't grover's no-tax pledge the reason we're in the mess that we're in with the debt talks right now? >> i don't think so at all. i think excessive federal spending is the reason we are in the mess we're in right now. but to answer your question, does foefr nor gift run the gop? i'm happy to give grover credit to do more than o any other single person. i'm here to tell you as a conservative and a republican, i'm happy on the idea of taxes to follow him. >> so ronald reagan was not a good president because he raised the taxes 11 times. . so you and grover would say, let's get away from ronald reagan's legacy? >> yeah, i'm ju

and that's what we all should be doing right now. >> senator boxer right there referring to grover norquist, you've been hearing his name a lot over the last several weeks. he will join us later on "morning joe." . deficit game blame is not playing well on wall street. the indexes worst one-day drop in two months yesterday. let's look at the markets, anna edwards live in london for us. good morning. any better today? >> good to see you, afraid not, at least from a global perspective. the markets were down 200 points, 1.6% lower in just one day. the markets concerns in the short term very much focused on whether or not washington is going to reach any kind of agreement to increase its debt ceiling. what that means for markets is either worry about if we don't have an increase in the debt ceiling, what does that mean for government spending in the short term and what does that do to u.s. growth. >> we've heard repeatedly about the threat of a downgrade in the united states credit rating, the head of standard & poor's speaking yesterday about the potential of u.s. default. what did he say? >>

apparently giving a green light by grover norquist?

those folks over there, about 80 of them, they pledged to grover norquist. i want to pledge allegiance to the united states of america. that's what we should be doing. >> good morning. it is thursday, july 28th. look at the beautiful shot of new york city. welcome to "morning joe." yes, with us on set -- >> look at him. >> msnbc contributor, mike barnicle. >> national affairs editor, john heilemann and willie geist. the excitement of yesterday's anniversary. >> where were you? >> at a satellite in boston. >> a lot of talk about john mccain the last couple years. yesterday, john mccain, classic john mccain, he went after the president for leading from behind, which is new york times talks about today. >> right. >> nobody on the left can say that's a right wing attack by john mccain. he tore into the republican freshmen as well. i mean mccain went after both sides and yesterday, basically said let's get the grown ups in the room and save the economy from a collapse. >> welcome back, senator mccain. this is the senator mccain who we used to know several years a

consider this, rolling out a plan with $9 trillion in deficit reduction and grover norquist panned it because it closes some tax loopholes. coburn told nbc, this is a sick place. i mean, think about it. you don't want to make this deal because it's good for the country but it's bad for me? we need a bunch of spinal transplants in both parties. so what is the public stand about this? a massive messaging war, if you will, between the two parties for the last three or four week. the new nbc/"wall street journal" poll and i can tell you one thing it's pretty decisive. that's tonight on the "nbc nightly news," all about the debt ceiling as well as an update on where the presidential race stands. >>> speaking of purity any politics, the house votes today on its so-called cut, cap and balance legislation. it cuts the deficit, catches federal spending as a percent of the economy and requires passage of a balanced budget amendment with a two-thirds majority for tax increases before the debt limit is raised. almost certain to die in the senate. the president promised to veto the bill, of course

i would rather fix our country and lose a battle with grover norquist then send our country norquist then send our country down the tubes and raise a point of view that is suicide. the fact is, in is a lot of way to enhance the federal government. reforming the tax code is a great way to do it. we have to get $4 trillion. that doesn't go away no matter what anybody says. the president didn't have a deficit plan. the president's commission had a deficit plan. he never enbraced it. you see the games played with the numbers, which aren't accurate. realistic things. plus, revenues are at the lowest point. we're at 15.8%. revenues are as a percentage of g.d.p. i think there are tons of tax credits and things in the tax credits and things in the tax codes that are unfair that we ought to eliminate. anybody that gets something out of the tax code today in terms of the tax credit and the tax spend tour, you are paying for it if you didn't get one. it is a matter of shifting costs around. if you don't have a special deal on the tax code that you can take advantage of, you can actually pay mor

well, yes, i will take credit for -- or blame really for grover norquist. was one of the many conservatives, ann coulter, laura ingram, lots of people who we introduced to the american public back in the '90s on "politically correct." we needed foils for me, and, i guess, they are getting the last laugh since they are actually controlling america now. but yes, grover certainly has not changed. i think he came up with this pledge in high school and has not changed. no matter what happens in the world, we cannot raise taxes, and, of course, getting people to sign a pledge so american, because it's part of that same intellectual sinkhole where we get three strikes you're out, and zero tolerance, things where people do not have to think. that's what americans, especially our leaders, are always trying to do, get to a place where you don't have to think about something. which is ironic because these are the people who always claim they are belovers of the constitution and the founding fathers. this is very much against what the founding fathers would have wanted

grover norquist responded this morning to steny hoyer on our air. take a listen. >> hoyer is wrong. the answer is the people who made this commitment not to raise taxes made it clear they're not raising taxes and boehner and the other republicans have said that independent of the pledge. there's certain things you could do techniqcally and not violate the pledge but the americans would understand is a tax release. americans for tax reform reject any effort to reduce or not continue the 2001-2003 bush tax cuts. >> the question now becomes did grover norquist say unequivocally did any non-extension of the bush tax cuts equal a tax raise. seems like there is wiggle room there. why is that important? house republicans said repeatedly they will not allow tax increases to be part of a debt reduction deal. if there is leeway there, forever grover is not saying unequivocally, not the bush tax cuts, maybe there will be a vote. >> will this give people on the hill whiplash? >> reporter: there's so many different trains, no one knows what will get in the station. no one knows. on health care a

it would go a substantial way toward enshrining grover norquist norquist's version of america into law. bob greenstein joins me later. barack obama recognizes it for what it is, nothing but a one-day stunt that has no chance of becoming law, so the obama administration are still talking positively about the possibility of raising the debt ceiling. this morning, president obama said he, and republicans leaders were "making progress in the negotiations." and treasury secretary tim geithner said this on cnbc this morning. >> you've seen the leadership of the republican party in the senate and the house definitively take default off the table as leverage for a deal, and that's encouraging. geithner remains adamant that revenues be part of any deficit reduction deal. >> it's also going to require, through tax reform, some modest changes in revenues so that we're not sustaining tax breaks for the most fortunate 2% of americans, tax breaks we can't afford. we need to have a balanced package. everybody who's looked at this knows we need to have a balanced package. no deal in history that neede

you said grover norquist is my boss i. think she. >> how sillsy that? >> he wrote the petition and you signed it. you did what he told you to do chris, i've signed a number of petitions. >> why? >> why did the senate vote 97-0 nothing, chris, 97-0 against the president's budget? why? >> sir -- >> why? why? >> i'm just asking -- we're not getting anywhere. this is childish. i've asked why -- >> chris, this is why a lot of people don't come on your show, because it tends to get childish. you don't let people answer, my friend. look, the house is going to do something historic tonight. you may not like it, but let's see how this plays out. and i think there's a fighting chance this year to pass a balanced budget amendment out of both houses. by way, do you support that, chris? do you support -- >> sir, you called the president of the united states a liar, then said -- >> no, i've said he lied. i've said he's lied, chris. >> okay. your pal joe wilson says he's a liar. you say he's lying. i think it's bad behavior. >> we're all in the same game. >> yes. >> b

than the deficit, because closing those tax loop holes, that violated the norquist pledge.having the top rates go back to where they were in the clinton administration, as you just discussed in the previous segment, has been something the republicans hated, and so the question was how do you enforce this deal, and that is part of what it broke down on. you can understand the president and the white house wanted to make sure once they were willing to make these tough decisions on the cut side that the end of the day the revenue would be there, otherwise they'd seem to be total chumps, and that was why you had that reaction just yesterday when the false reports were coming out this was all cuts and no revenue. >> that's what i think is so brilliant about the president's orchestration, he did reveal the republicans are much more interested in protecting the top end of income tax payers than they are interested in deficit reduction. and deficit reduction, obviously, is going to be a major campaign issue and this whole process has revealed what the republican's priorities are. d

grover norquist was nude gingrich's butt buddy. jack abra hof's buddy.ed peoples 25ds,000 a pop to go to a bush white house signing ceremony. he is a petty crim kninal and m just about every single member of the house of republicans, on the republican side, not the tea party, and almost all republican. s signing a pledge saying they will never, ever for the rest of their lives raise taxes. i need to know -- do we have on the left of grover norquist, and if we don't, why not? because i need to know why it is one man, who's never had an elected office in his life -- >> a couple of points. first of all, this tax thing is beyond crazy. i read an article today that there are republicans who are backing away from the boehner plan. i thought, hmm. that's interesting. maybe they're moving towards reid's. no. they're backingy with from the boehner plan because it's not conservative enough. afraid there's a tax increase and boehner is on the radio explaining to rush limbaugh, no way. can't happen. so this is -- this pledge -- i put it right in the same camp at the

point, grover norquist, hang on, eliminate the ethanol subsidies, a tax increase. how does he deal with that? >> both of those, look at those reasonably are not really true. you cannot come close to balancing the budget without looking at entitlements and there's not a person in america who thinks you can. and i think that includes nancy pelosi and harry reid. what i would do and suggest to the media if they're going to start criticizing some of the proposals out there, not just senator coburns, where's your proposal? close is the democrat of leaders in the house. she proposed nothing. >> what about grover norquist and the no tax crowd relative to coburn who says year going to eliminate -- >> i totally agree. if you are raising -- i agree with grover, if you are raising the margin the rates on income tax -- lgts that's not what we're talking about. what we're talking about is the elimination of sdub sdis -- >> the vast majority of conservatives agree getting rid of ethanol subsidies are not tax increases, getting rid of breaks that shouldn't have been granted in th

last november he sent a letter to republican leaders calling for congress to -- norquist in january saidnking the pentagon meant that conservatives need to rethink our presence in afghanistan. >> >> question, next year's g.o.p. presidenti p mares, will defense spending be nds off a wedge issue@that divides the contendsers? >> i thk they're alrey divided. i think tim pawlenty is tang a super-hawk pro defense, we're not @@going to cut defense spending stance. other candidates, ronpaul, jon huntsman are for@shrinking the dget. it about 5%. at the ends of the clinton era it was 3. i think there's tremendo appetite in both parties to lower defense spendi. what will @@republicans offer t democrats in return for getting entitlement reform and they don't want raise@taxes. they might office defen cu. >> south carolina senator setor grahamcan't imagine a repuican running to the left of president @@obama on defense but i thk it's reall9 hard to see what is the emerging rldview ming from this sets republans but they've been freed by the@fact there's a democrat in the white house to be @@critical of

grover norquist is joining us now from washington.you mean to say, sir, when it comes to the expiration or allowing the bush era tax cuts to expire? would that be breaking your pledge? >> okay. right now the present policy are the bush '01-'3 tax cuts, the amt patch. that's present policy. changing that in a way to raise revenue would be raising taxes, and that's the challenge for people who want to make those, to make that decision. i got wrapped around a bunch of hypotheticals in the conversation there, but i want to be very clear. raising taxes to raise additional revenue, um, would violate the pledge. what we've been clear, and one way to check on this, ending the bush tax rate reductions, the present policy, would increase the tax burden by $4 trillion over the next decade. that is a massive tax increase, and it doesn't pass the laugh test which is something i said repeatedly. it doesn't pass the laugh test as not a tax increase. can you get into hypotheticals where congress goes home and attacks cuts all by its lonesome? yeah, i

>> i have not discussed it with grover norquist. but it seems to me you could as a republican congressman have taken the pledge and you've given them way around it. >> rose: what do you any of that david? >> i mea i think the fairest critique of it is that it is less progressive than simply allowing the bush tax cuts-- all of them-- to expire. and so given how much we've had inequality increase in this country, pre-tax inequality, and given that tax rates have fallen far more for the well off and affluent than they have for everybody else. >> i would be interesting in seeing a version of that proposal that also attempts to reorient revenue re so it's coming there are the higr e as it did during the clinton years. >> you can certainly to that... >> but that's around the margins. >> you don't to raise marginal tax rates to do that. if in the proposal that we talked about and said limit the amount that you can benefit to 2% of your a.g.i. well, you could say for the people with incomes below a certain amount they get 3%. >> rose: what

perhaps no one has had more sway than republicans in this fight than grover norquist. he's here to dish on the debt and deal in taxes. and big money, big problems? mitt romney's campaign is debt free, but where is all that money coming from? we'll tell you why it could add up to a little bit of trouble for the republican front-runner. good morning, it's monday, july 18th, 2011. i'm chuck todd. just 15 days until default day. let's get right to my first reads of the morning. it's a week of public spectacle and private wrangling. efforts to get a big debt deal done has failed. >> when you look in the past at agreements between divided government, it's taken leadership on both sides. it took reagan and o'neil. it took clinton and gingrich. the president is out there. he's willing to do it. he said it in the state of the union, he said it in the budget. the question is, do we have a partner to work with? and i hope the answer to that is yes. >> this week we'll see a two-track process. publicly, leaders will get a few votes out of the way to allow conservatives to get on th

governor -- excuse me, grover n norquist is playing a big part in this stance. he was on the air earlier today talking about where he stands on all of this. take a listen. >> obama wants to say, you know what the problem is, the peasants aren't sending enough cash to pay for my government, we should raise taxes. no. raising taxes does not do anything to help cut spending. raising taxes is what obama and other democrats do sfed of cutting spending. >> so here's grover norquist, a man not in an elected position by anyone in america yet he holds a choke hold on republicans because he had them sign the tax pledge. do you think that there's really anything substantial that can be accomplished with so many house republicans having signed that? >> it's going to be really tough, because until our republican colleagues are more worried about reducing the deficit than they're worried about what grover norquist has to say, we're going to be in trouble. he said the president wants the peasants to send the revenues. the fact is we're talking about closing corporate loopholes