grover norquist -- grover norquist. to compare car insurance rates side by side so you get the same coverage, often for less. that's one smart board. what else does it do, reverse gravity? [ laughs ] [ laughs ] [ whooshing ] tell me about it. why am i not going anywhere? you don't believe hard enough. a smarter way to shop around. now that's progressive. call or click today. [ grunting ] but don't just listen to me. listen to these happy progressive customers. i pluggein snapshot, and 30 days later, with snapshot, i knew what i could save before i switched to progressive. the better i drive, the more i save. i wish our company had something this cool. you're not filming this, are you? aw! camera shy. snapshot from progressiv test-drive snapshot before you switch. visit progressive.com today. ♪ lou: new york city police commissioner ray kelly tends to stay out of politics of any sort, so surprising when he enters the fray and this time at the expense of the president. a determined advocate of gun control quoted in today'

grover norquist -- grover norquist. suddenly being blamed for everything. one cash rewards card gives you 1% cash back on all purchases, plus a 50% annual bonus. and everyone...but her likes 50% more cash. but i'm upping my game. do you want a candy cane? yes! do you want the puppy? yes! do you want a tricycle? yes! do you want 50 percent more sh? no! ♪ festive. [ male announcer ] the capital one cash rewards card gives you 1% cash back on every purchase plus a 50% annual bonus on the cash you earn. it's the card for people who like more cash. what's in your wallet? ♪ lou: new york city police commissioner ray kelly tends to stay out of politics of any sort, so surprising when he enters the fray and this time at the expense of the president. a determined advocate of gun control quoted in today's new york daily news saying this. maybe this is the most affected by guns in chicago. the president's hometown. barely a peep out of hand. we have noted that fact on this broadcast a number of times. to be clear, there is every reason for the president to speak out a

grover norquist couldn't get elected to anything, dog catcher even.e intimidating all these folks that some of whom really want to do the right thing and now is the time when they have to do the right thing, when they have to be patriots and that's what this is about. are you going to put the interests of your country and your constituents above special interests that grover norquist has and the threat that he holds of pouring millions of dollars into your campaign? if that's the only way you're going to get re-elected, then darn it, it's not worth it, and i think a lot of republicans are coming to that conclusion. >> there are some encouraging signs. here is democratic senator dick durbin today speaking about the possibility of a deal on the fiscal cliff. take a listen. >> pick up any of the hill newspapers and look for the full-page ads. basically saying to the left, keep your hands off the entitlements and to the right, keep your hands off of taxes. well, if both sides heed those warnings, nothing will happen. >> congressman, he's right, isn't he?

. >> grover norquist. >> you speak of grover norquist. >> he's an entertaining warrior. >> pledge mentality is really on the run right now. >> speaker boehner clearly wants a deal. >> he can't have one arm tied behind his back. >> the top 1%, only 42% of the wealth. >> 48.5 million people lived below the poverty level. >> we should ask the wealthy to start paying their fair share. >> the american sense of fairness, no one should pay more than 25%. >> today's republican party has imploded. >> they are in denial. >> they are looking for someone to blame. >> grover is no longer speaking for the party. >> they may not be willing to just die on this hill anymore. >>> good evening. i'm ezra cline in for lawrence o'donnell. the craziest thing is happening in washington right now. you've probably heard of the fiscal cliff or as lawrence likes to call it, the fiscal curve or as my friend calls t the austerity bomb. whatever you would like to call it, it does not look like it's going to happen. it doesn't just look like we're going to avoid a crisis. at this moment today, and this can change, it look

to grover norquist. >> i'm not obligated on the pledge.ade tennesseeans aware, the only thing i'm honoring is the oath that i take when i'm sworn in this january. >> when i go to the con stech wents that have re-elected me. >> the pledge is for that congress. if i remember in congress in 1941, i would have signed a declaration of war against japan. the world has changed. >> but grover norquist does not think this world has changed. for republicans, who signed his pledge. >> are you going to want to exact punishment on them in two year, what? >> two things. there have been some, the folks whose pictures you put up there, some have engaged in impure thoughts. they haven't actually voted for a tax increase. we could ask president bush how his second term went after he broke his pledge. did he damage the pledge or by breaking his pledge, he lost a second term for the presidency. >> and this morning, even fox and friends were getting all philosophical about till death do us part pledges. >> i think you get into really difficult situations in re

norquist also takes cheap shots in defending his anti-tax pledge. >> two things. the pledge is not for life but everybody that signs the pledge, including peter king, who tried to weasel out of it, shame on him in the new york sunset today. i hope his wife understands that commitments last a little longer than two years. the commitment for the pledge as peter king well knows when he signed it is that as long as you are in congress, you will reign in spending and reform government, not raise taxes. >> they are just going right back at one another aren't they, boom/boom. these are republicans, all of the sudden just at each other's throats. republican congressman, peter king, responded. >> the fact he brought my wife into it. i don't think he has ever met me, certainly never met my wife. he better hope he doesn't. she will knock his head off. >> king also explained why norquist is wrong on substance. >> i did sign a pledge back in 1996, during the whole conflict with the clinton administration over the government shutdown. i was totally opposed to any tax increases

norquist can give some ground. robert reich, did you ever expect that we would be reading an editorial where the "wall street journal" is telling grover norquist that he's got to give ground on the tax increase? >> no, i didn't. election day does magical things to the "wall street journal" and to a lot of the republican right. they are sounding difsht than before. some of them actually learned a lesson. another aspect of the leverage the president has and this is the republican nightmare, that on january 2nd, democrats come back with legislation that says we are going to have a tax cut for the middle class and then, what do republicans do? at that particular point in time, have got to vote for this or else they look like they are essentially which is what they are, shows for the rich and grover norquist is going to have to say you must vote for this. this is a tax cut. this is the republican nightmare and it is coming. they see it coming and they don't dare use their old threat to put against a raising the debt cei

. >> grover norquist, he wanted ground government in the bathtub. i hope he slips in there with it. >> medicaid, social security. >> this is not part of the conversation. we're not going to raid social security. just another fight in washington. >> there's going to be blood and hair and eyeballs all over the floor. >> i'm more positive than most. >> if not, we go off the supposed cliff. >> the fiscal cliff or slope. the bump of various height. >>> thelma and louise might need to make room in the car for the president of the united states. at the white house today, senior obama administration officials met with liberal leaders and union officials. "the washington post" reports that one told him after the meeting, quote, would the white house go off the cliff if it's between that and compromising their core principles? i was left with the impression that they would. illinois democratic senator dick durbin spoke today at the liberal center for american progress where he said this about the possibility of going off the cliff which fears of this show kno

. >> anti-tax crusader, grover norquist attacking the wives of republican congressman? >> i hope his wife understands that commitments last a little longer than two years. >> tonight, lee saunders on the grassroots blast to pass the middle class tax cuts. >> small business owner, lou krantz, on his meeting with the president. congressman, steve israel, on the democratic momentum on the fiscal cliff. plus. >> karen finney on the new bizarre attack on ambassador, susan rice. >> all of the sudden, we are the bell of the ball. we are here to say, it's time to start to dance. >>> latino voters help put president obama over the top. now, the hispanic caucus says they want action. representative luis gutierrez joins me tonight. >>> good to have you with us. thanks for watching. president obama is selling his economic agenda and using all the right tools. the president was surrounded today by middle class taxpayers at the white house as he pushed for an extension of the tax cuts for income below $250,000. he was quick to highlight the break in the ranks with the republicans. >>

i have to say something about grover norquist first. i tell you what, i like grover norquist. you don't have to agree with him, but i'm amused by him. my favorite grover norquist story when i covered congress in 2005 and 2006, somehow i did a story about politicians who were active as student politics at colleges. i think he had been or he had some thoughts on him. i called him up for a quote, and he didn't let me done. i didn't get the question out of my mouth about student body presidents. anybody who is a student body president ought to be drowned. >> wow, strong feelings. >> did he sign an oath to that in that regard? >> the thing go grover, he's an entertaining guy and he does wield a lot of power. not as much as people said, but chuck todd said he's a symbol of absolutism. dan, what i wanted to ask you about is something else coming into the picture here in these negotiations is the debt ceiling. if that's going to be -- we're going to sort of come up against that a couple months into the new year, not at the same time as this fiscal slope. obama said to boehner he wants

it is grover norquist!uncer: this is the "bill press show." >> announcer: chatting with you live at current.com/billpress this is the "bill press show." live on your radio and current tv. >> bill: good morning everybody. welcome back. again to the "full court press." it is 33 minutes after the hour now. we're coming to you live from our nation's capital and our studio on capitol hill. and brought to you today by afscme the good men and women of afscme under president lee saunders, the largest public employee and healthcare worker's union in the entire country making america happen. indeed. you can check out their good work and find out more about what afscme's up to post-election at their web site, afscme.org. and we're very proud and pleased to welcome into the studio at this time, a good friend from california former speaker of the california assembly, now representing the 33rd congressional district of california in the united states congress congresswoman karen bass. congresswoman, nice to see you this

should the gop dump grover n norquist's tax pledge? writing when many took this pledge they were in i different time and place. they shouldn't be bound by a pledge that was right for a certain time period. in order to fix our economic problems, all options need to be on the table. >>> susie kaplan writes individual signatures so individual decisions. congress' allegiance is to all people, not one. and this is from mazy, if they are just for the ones he wants them to serve, they should not be in office. thank you for all your facebook and twitter responses there. >>> this week the supreme court may consider whether to take on cases relating to marriage inequality including a challenge to california's proposition 8. the high court's rule follows election day victories in four states for same-sex marriages. activists are trying to keep up that momentum. they're going ahead, looking at seven more states they believe they can legalize the issue in by 2014. their effort also include ace powerful new tv ad from the human rights campaign. it i

grover norquist is not jesus.e is not going to speak from some mount and give us the ten commandments. and alan simpson is wonderful. he can't murder you, he can't burn down your house, he can't even blow down it hard. so the reality is you've got to make adjustments in the face of the american people's sentiment being, look, everybody's got to pitch in. aren't we americans? economic patriotism means everybody has to tighten the belt a little bit. >> i think it's interesting that you use the religious language there because grover norquist was on tv today saying rinse are having impure thoughts on raising taxes. a note of caution on all grover norquist deniers on tv. it's easy for lindsey graham and saxby chambliss to get on tv. but when it comes down to the actual vote, that's a lot harder for republicans to do, especially in the house of representatives where they can get a primary in 2014, get a lot of republicans up who could face tea party primaries. this is a small group that's jumped off the grover bridge.

what grover norquist said this morning on cnn's "starting point."position hasn't changed. during the debt ceiling limit we cut spending, we didn't raise taxes. so other republicans did not listen to peter king or these others and say, oh, let's go raise taxes. they're speaking for themselves. >> most americans say the country would face a crisis or major problems if the country goes off the so-called fiscal cliff at the end of the year. a cnn/orc polls on the issues just out, more poll respondents said they'd blame republicans rather than the president if a compromise is not reached. >>> kids love those bouncy houses. but parents will not love these latest figures from the journal pediatrics. a study found injuries from the inflatable bouncers spiked more than 15 times over a 15-year period. about a quarter of the injuries were broken bones. researchers don't know for sure why these injuries are gone up so much. >>> video of a black friday fight as a roseville, california, mall has gone viral. the man who took the picture still doesn't understand wh

number of probably going to come forward in recent days to disavow grover norquist pledge to never raise taxes public and senator bob corker republican senator lindsey graham saxby chambliss yes a republican representative tom cole called on his fellow republicans to take the president's deal and extend the tax cuts for ninety eight percent of americans letting them expire for the top two for two percent so neil you had breakfast today with grover norquist who's a small kid i have i have a little test kid here to measure whether you've been poisoned or not but you didn't tell him you were coming on the program or no i didn't know ok then we probably don't yes you seem you seem healthy. and his point i did do was everybody still kissing his ring or other parts of him the place was packed today and in fact a representative from boners office is off the record so i'm going to be violence for confidence but. a representative from baiters office was there to express their support and he also mentioned that congressman cole had been shut down face to face by boehner himself and told this is no

is groverer norquist willing to risk his place within this emerging shadow of g.o.p. revenue stream to go after republicans, that's a good question. >> eliot: and the question whether or not all those issue advocacy ads with a lot of money behind them from effective. i think there were a fair number of senior republicans who said we have to raise revenues but questioning the orthodoxy of a rigid system may be the way to go. they would think no longer. isn't there this fundamental fork in the road for many of the senior republicans? >> you would think so, but looking back to 2010 after the the 2010 election when republicans really thought they had the mandate in the same way frankly that democrats appear to have the mandate now on fiscal issues specifically where the tea party was successful. tea party candidates were successful in arguing that the obama administration has engaged in this reckless runaway spending with its democratic allies in congress and they were successful in taking back the house. then one year later with the debt ceiling negotiations they seem to

grover norquist's pledge. but now with the fiscal cliff looming, lawmakers who were once staunchly against raising revenues seem to be changing their tone a little bit. and grover norquist's influence may be fading fast. >> fewer and fewer people are signing this pledge. >> the pledge is dead. >> i'm not saying it's dead but i am saying the majority of members of congress see the fiscal cliff we want to sit down and we want to get something worked out. >> if you appropriate some of the money you achieved by eliminating deductions and loopholes to the national debt, even though that may technically violate the pledge, sign me up. that's a reasonable accommodation for a republican to make. >> jennifer: for the record, that was senators john mccain and lindsey graham so the question is this grover norquist's last stand? here with an answer is donnie fowler. donnie of course, democratic strategist and great political operative. welcome back into "the war room." is it grover norquist's last stand? >> we can only ho

norquist doesn't have such power. the voters do. he had the wit to channel the electorate's limited government beliefs into a single issue enforcement mechanism. long-time ally of norquist, jack abramoff who joins me in a moment said simply, news of grover's demise is premature. but in recent interviews, norquist has begun to sound like a petulant leader on the way out. >> the pledge is not for l.i.e. everybody who signed the pledge including peter king, who tried to weasel out of it, shame on him as the new york sun said today, i hope his wife understands that commitments last a little longer than two years or something. >> eliot: warren buffett continued to be the pragmatic voice of the majority. >> i think there is a general feeling among the american public certainly and even among many in congress that the rich like me have been getting away with low tax rates and it is time to make the tax rates more progressive. >> eliot: for more on the fiscal cliff negotiations, i'm joined by congressman peter welch, democrat from vermont.

norquist said, it is a pledge to the people. some of those senators wanting to raise -- wanting not to raise taxes, that pledge, they knew what would happen to them, they would get run out of state. first i want to see president obama's cards on the table. host: jerry is up next in st. charles, missouri. good morning. caller: one of the things i would like to talk about is the waste in government. i see it continuously in ads on. on a completely off as far as a meter for your diabetes. they say it is free. you have to watch the price. the waste in government has been going on a longtime. why did they not attack it the last 20 years? the waste has been there forever. god bless representative colb urn because he's going after waste and duplication in government, like eight different agencies covering one thing. i tried a couple of those ads for your blood pressure or a catheter. it is a rip-off. host: how does this factor into the fiscal cliff? caller: right now, not as much, because it is something that has to be done over a long

let's talk about grover norquist. no new taxes pledged. you said earlier in your career, you told cbs morning news earlier today, and i'm quoting now, you said you're not obligated on the pledge, adding the only thing i'm honoring is the oath that i take when i'm sworn in this january. so what exactly did you mean by that? did you suggest -- did you mean that under certain circumstances you would be ready to accept an increase in tax rates for the wealthy? >> well, i was just elected as you know, re-elected. and our campaign materials during the campaign spelled out that the only pledge i would be honoring would be the pledge of the oath of office that you make when you're sworn in. that's what my comments meant. i think republicans had shown a willingness to look at revenues as long as we have entitlement reform. i think those are the two ends of the spectrum. and it appears to me that speaker boehner has been shown flexibility in revenues and it appears to me the president has shown flexibility on entitlements. and the point of my op ed

right now as part of a deal. >> andrea, we saw a rapidly changing grover norquist.e, a wide avenue, for house republican leaders to make a deal and not run afoul of his organization. he told us as we saw earlier he had a three-step plan. he said that he didn't want republicans to have their fingers on the murder weapon but there are ways around that. he says he wants the deal negotiated in public, on tv. he said it needs to be able to pass the laugh test back home. that certainly in the eyes of the beholder. he wants republicans to push for reforms which speaker boehner is doing. he doesn't want republicans to be blamed. and he's saying republicans need to be out there now making the case for what they want so that if taxes go up, taxpayers are less likely to blame them. the way he put it to me is, you don't stand there and wait for the train to hit you. >> is he redefining revenue? every time i've interviewed grover norquist he's always giving a rigid definition, the only kind of revenue increases he's been willing to contemplate are those that come from growth, fr

and the pledge. >> i admire grover norquist. i think he's done a lot of good. i signed that pledge. i'm honored to do it. i don't think in this case we would be breaking it by making what are temporary tax cuts permanent. i think we'd be doing the right thing. >> cole is trying to do him a favor by saying if we do this, it won't be breaking your pledge. therefore, your pledge still exists. i mean, that's about as big a favor as he can do him at that point. >> he's trying throw poor grover a lifeline. but i think the damage has been done because you've had so many people saying, lindsey graham saying i would violate the pledge, end of story and i think the american public has become more aware of the pledge, how much it's deictated republican policy. you're supposed to be answering to us, the voter, so i think that has in addition to the fact that keeping these tax cuts in places so unpopular, i think just the idea i itself of the pledge has become politically toxic. >> i want you to listen to one more thing cole said today about

not to the constitution, but to grover norquist. therefore they're not going to go along--even if boehner wants them to go along. both sides the president and democrats on one side, boehner and the republicans are basically maneuvering for bargaining position for what is going to be a long-term negotiation. >> eliot: they're just shadow boxing, i think that's exactly right. i wonder and i'm trying to assess--i have no knowledge of what goes on inside the republican party but i'm trying to discern if boehner has more strength now than he did when this negotiation took place lose yearlastyear. does he have the political strength because his party lost, can he look eric cantor in the eye and other republican leaders in the eye and say we have no choice but to cut a deal that is now on the president's terms? >> i think the strongest bargaining level he has is not so much that the republicans lost the election but beginning january 1st tax rates do go up particularly on the wealthy automatically. that's when the bush tax cut is basically

norquist. he's playing the bad cop and other republicans are playing the good cop saying, look, violate the almighty grover norquist pledge. we won't raise the rates and they're doing a trick where the democrats give us entitlement spending cuts instead. who is head of the republican party. a lot of people think it's john boehner. is it this guy right here? [ buzzer ] not him. a lot of people think it's grover norquist. is it grover? no not him either. [ buzzer ] so who is it? you got to understand, the politicians take their orders from their donors. and grover norquist is not the mr. donor himself. he funnels the donor money. who is actually in charge? these guys. this is lloyd blankfine and david coast, they're also on this thing called the ceo fiscal leadership council. what is that? that's a bunch of ceos who got together and said, all right no more being zealot, increases or any kind of revenue increases fine. but obama is offering an awesome deal. let's take it, it's over. they're sendin

president's side that are saying, wait a minute, you had all of these people signing these grover norquist commitments that wouldn't give any on the deal you're talking about. and i'm encouraged when i hear colleagues implying that maybe they will give. i'm a preacher. sunday morning, i love congress calling. maybe you are all coming over this way and not being so hard lined. but it was not the president in the grand bargain. it was the norquist committed republican caucus that after boehner made the agreement would not let him do it. >> look, you had on this program this morning peter king saying this, chambliss is saying, that does seem to be breaking. we can still fight about tax rates over capital gains or whatever, but it does seem to be breaking. >> i think people know a deal needs to be made. i think these are practical people. but i also think that the president needs at this juncture to go back to what andrea said. the president needs to provide a view of what his agenda actually is. the reverend said he should govern the way he campaigned. there were not a lot of big ideas in his

grover norquist's tax pledge could be history. and all eyes are now focusing on house republicans as talks to avoid going over that so-called fiscal cliff are picking up steam. joining me now, mark halperin, senior political analyst for "time" and msnbc and ruth marcus, columnist and editorial writer for the "washington post." to you, mark, what is your read about what we've been hearing the last couple of days about grover norquist, the pledge and how much running room the speaker does have to b negotiating a deal. >> i did a spit take with my fruity pebbles watching "morning joe" because eric cantor's tone was unlike anything i've ever heard. his office is saying oh, no, he's against raising marginal rates, but it's clear that in the scheme of things, the biggest piece is does john boehner have enough running room to strike a deal involving some new revenue. i still am of the belief that the vote in the house, which will be a cliff hanger no matter what happens amongst the leaders in the white house, it will be a tough vote. i t

as for grover norquist. he told soledad o'brien today, although some republicans are discussing impure thoughts on television, they won't really act on them. >> lindsay graham says i would raise taxes if, and then he lists this incredible list of reforms and entitlements that the democrats would never give him. as i suggested to him, i said, senator you're offering to trade a tax increase for a pink unicorn that doesn't exist. >> whether he does or doesn't bend on taxes, pundits here in washington seem terribly impressed that senator graham and others are talking about going against grover norquist. outside the beltway, most people don't know grover norquist from grover on sesame street. standing up to a lobbyist, even a powerful one is only washington progress, not real progress. first step, maybe even a necessary one. but only that, so is going on sunday talk shows as both republicans and democrats are doing. and talking about flexibility. >> let the rates go up to 39. let us also take a look at the deduct

it was the norquist committed republican caucus that after boehner made the agreement would not let him do it. >> look, you had on this program this morning peter king saying this, chambliss is saying, that does seem to be breaking. we can still fight about tax rates over capital gains or whatever, but it does seem to be breaking. >> i think people know a deal needs to be made. i think these are practical people. but i also think that the president needs at this juncture to go back to what andrea said. the president needs to provide a view of what his agenda actually is. the reverend said he should govern the way he campaigned. there were not a lot of big ideas in his campaign. taxing the wealthy is not a big idea. taxing the wealthy is not getting this economy back on the road to growth. taxing the wealthy is not a process of addressing our great opportunities and challenges. so as incumbent as it is for the republicans to say, ok, we're going to put revenue on the table, and i think john boehner was crystal clear in his first speech after the election that revenues are on the table, t

bush asked who the hell is grover norquist anyway?how does this man hold so much political clout in the country? it was particularly because he was able to take the party. he was able to tell the republicans, look, i am going to be, you know, the way that you either get re-elected or don't get elected at all, but now the power is slipping. you and i both know this. people who run for office particularly for the u.s. congress, they think of themselves as smart and capable leaders. my bet is those generally in line id logically with norquist don't want to be controlled by some puppet master, and this election gives them the freedom to say, we'll have to make reasonable concessions here in order to keep the counted tr going off the fiscal cliff. >> melissa harris-perry, always great to talk with you. if you want to hear more thoughts for the good professor, catch her weekends show 10:00 a.m. both days on msnbc. >>> hillary clinton is already being endorsed for 2016, but will she run? [ male announcer ] the way it moves. the way it cleans

norquist for a stalemate that is coming up. they are all putting their markers down. what are you hearing about what is going to happen over the next couple of weeks? >> it seems like there is a little bit of room on the middle on taxes. we just are talking about tax policy. the president has said he wants the wealthy to pay more. john boehner has said they will not increase tax rates on anyone. they will put revenue on the table. maybe there is a middle ground for they cannot have their rates go up. >> you're seeing that shift in town right now of republicans talking about this in terms of the loophole closings and that kind of thing. the question is when you do that, do you do that at the end of the year as part of this fiscal cliff package? two-part to do it next year as part of the tax reform deal? that is where the rub is going to be right now. i do not think anybody has figured out when you do these revenue increases. >> we have only heard from the leaders. speaker john boehner had mixed success on getting the rank and file republicans. do we know what they're r

this pledge, this grover norquist pledge, how important is it to the republican party? >> i think it's very important. >> do you think it's important for people who signed the pledge to keep it? >> i think it's important to remember the problem we have which is a spending problem and, frankly, i think we look at it in terms of any family. if your family is going into debt, the first thing you do is say, hey, dad, get a second is job and raise more revenue. you look at the family budget and say how do we cut? where do we get back? once that's done, we are still a little short to pay down the debt, how can we bring in more revenue? so i think before -- for a lot of these members of congress who have committed to saying the problem is spending, we need to reform our out-of-control entitlements, that's where the focus should be. >> the base of the democratic party going to allow the president some leeway on this? >> we need to have everything on the table. let's be clear. >> social security? >> s ocial security is not contributing to the current debt or the deficit. social

what is going on on the whole tax thing, and whole norquist thing? main were saying that -- today saying, that this is really about the imploying of grover norquist, he took afence to that in my interview earlier, but that is what is going on, probably more more than that, what do you say? >> first, i ca i have to addrest julie said, almost someone who lives inside of beltway could say that a pledge does not matter, this is a promise, they said while they serve in congress, not a short-term team, they made a promise, where i come from thee, the rest of america, separate from washington d.c., a pledge is a pledge, a promise is a promise. we the voters expect them to stick to it. it says, told to people who take pledge it is for while they serve in the offers, in congress. neil: i know what is says, but is it too inflectio inflexible n environment, you say don't do the hike thing. >> i am saying don't make a pledge if you do not intend to keep you it i am saying do not increase taxes, we having a fake fight, raising taxes on such a small percentage, we

. >> as washington likes are against this grover norquist. they are noted for the anti-tax plans. our panel of journalists, steven sloan from politico and russell berman from "the hill" >> thank you for being here. i want to talk about your interpretation of the election and what it means for the direction of tax policy. >> we had a split decision appeared the president won by two points. he won by 7.2 years ago against a war hero. he and 9 million fewer votes. he is a lame duck now. he said he was interested in raising taxes a year from now on anyone. his physician from four years ago was that they would not raise taxes on anyone. he was very clear and no taxes if you made less than $250,000. this year august 8, he started with a new framework. my plan is that i will not raise taxes on anyone who earns less than $250,000 a year. his only promising -- he is only promising not to raise income taxes. this is not include energy taxes. is only promising to protect income taxes for one year. at the end of the year, he has promised the middle-class nothing. you have one guy says he will

do the math. >> bob: norquist fiscal responsibility?erly: create jobs not stifle people -- >> bob: i don't think norquist is an economist. >> kimberly: that is missing the point. who cares what he is. >> bob: he is nothing. >> eric: we got to go. up next, look at a new video of a black friday brawl. wait until you hear what they are fighting over. maybe cyber monday shoppers have the right idea. but the online deals may not be such a steal. proposed taxes go in action. dana on deck with the info next. ♪ ♪ >> announcer: meet jill. she thought she'd feel better after seeing her doctor. and she might have, if not for kari, the identity thief who stole jill's social security number to open credit cards, destroying jill's credit and her dream of retirement. now meet amanda. with a swipe of her debit card, she bought some gas... and an all-expense-paid trip to hawaii for ben. ben is the intity thief who used a device called a skimmer to steal her formation from her card to open a fraudulent account. every year millions of americans just like

>> i admire grover norquist. he has a role to play in the search air i don't of the republican party. i have always been against ethanol subsidies, sugar subsidies, all of those things that i thought were wasteful and unnecessariful and the result of special interests. i am still opposed to rate increases. all of my career i have again to the floor and fault against the unwarranted subsidies that were directly a result lobbying rather than the national good. >>neil: you disagree when he says getting rid of those breaks or allowances, without corresponding spending cuts, that breaks the pledge? >>guest: no i don't if it breaks the pledge or not but i am opposed to the tax rate increase because i think it hurts the economy and i think most economists that i respect believe that but throughout my career i v gone to the floor time after time on the appropriations bills and the farm bills that have the important earmarks, the terrible and egregious subsidies which i have opposed all along and i am sure grower has been

it's not just grover norquist, it's the club for growth and other entities that do that.d what direction these people leading the party in. they concede the republican party is a fundamental congressional and oppositional force. the whole point of the pledge is to say someone else is acting, and you are laying down in advance how you react. there's no plan you're going to act or leading. if the republican party is a presidential party again and it's lost the majority of the vote in five of the six past presidential elections, it has to think in an entirely different way to make commitments to different groups of voters. >> what about on cuts, james is this this is an interesting comment. dick durbin has been on the show and he's so rational and open to compromise. he was open to closing loopholes and not raising rates. he's a rational man, and he said yesterday that democrats shouldn't be talking about cutting social security. here he is. >> social security does not add one penny to our debt. it's a separate funded operation. medicare is another story. only 12 years of so

function and a very kind of insular environment and the average american didn't know grover norquist was that they were ok well my congressman made this stance or that stance but they didn't see they didn't know it but we've had this so many times that i think people are starting to learn about what they know more about the fiscal cliff means and i think that there's going to be more accountability for the members but i also think that the gamesmanship of what you let the public know and how you kind of frame it isn't going to be the same it's not the same rules anymore because too much as out the public is too aware of these cuts and what these cuts but here's the frame if if. any kind of deal is cut before january thirty first or january first or december thirty first then functionally what it is doing is raising taxes because the bush tax cuts are still in effect if the bush tax cuts expire tax rates go up three points to go back to clinton levels and then republicans on january thirtieth can vote on a budget and say we're just going to keep taxes where they are and we're not we'r