numberone, you can't measure the lines that people have their money-- they don't want to roll the dice in the stock market and they're in fixed income accounts, they lose money. >> i agree with charles, it's a policy conversation and he and i disagree on it. we did the right thing not letting the industry go down in a crisis. i mean. >> do you know what you're saying here? >> listen, there's a notion out there that big businesses are protected and when that happens, they do stupid things and that's one of the problems. listen, tarp and all that have-- >> and don't tell me that we made money. >> neil: and about the precedent, to your point, charles, whatever the good, i'm just worried about the present because i know if it it happens again, it probably will, we'll do it again with much bigger numbers. >> of course, charlie hit the nail on the head. in other words, why wouldn't the businesses take these sort of risks if you have a friend in the white house. >> why would you? >> or if you're on wall street why wouldn't you take the risks if you know you're going to be bailed out and that