it's near impossible for -- for graduates to start something on the same playing field as ny times.com or cnn.com. it's this idea that from software or at least from the software standpoint or the internet end link is just as accessible so you don't have a tiered kind of system where, oh, if you have the default cable package you can get your google search but if you want yahoo! search or some upstart search that's an extra $30 a month. all of a sudden you ear losing out on whatever part of the market can't afford that percentage and that's what makes the internet great. it means someone can have a great idea and it can spread as equally as any other. >> rose: so is edward snowden a traitor or whistle blower? >> he is a whistle-blower. i think there are -- there were tactical decisions he could have made that would have made it easier for the american public to sympathize with him. i think if he had probably -- even if he had just stopped at the fourth amendment violations that were happening to american citizens that would have been enough. but i still absolutely believe he's a whistle-blower. >