cities grow organgically. ohio has. whereas, nation states are political and the boundaries are somewhat arbitrary and that is work and others have been involved for nations. b you see many more out liars and in some cases it is arbitrary. it hawseant been taken seriously. >> you didn't tell us about the ending of the book. >> oh, they live happily ever after. [laughter] >> [inaudible question] [inaudible question] we know that. we know that. we are in trouble. you know? are we just trying to find solutions to delay the trouble. >> i don't know. i was trying to form a conceptual framework that you could start thinking in a scientific language about the questions and make it more quanatative, mechanistic and so on. this is, you know, scratching the surface in a way. but it is um, you know, i think we need something i use the phrase a grand theory of sustainability where everything -- in fact, one of the things i do feel is that, you know, if we were serious about this, there should be a project, you know, hundreds of mil