and how osha functions. so it's a more straightforward film. it discusses the fact that, you know, under the osha law, employers have the primary responsibility to have a safe workplace. workers have -- and their unions have a role to play in helping make that happen, but that all workers have a right to file an osha complaint and have an outside osha inspector come in and look at situations. and if regulations are being violated, that affect safety and health, that the osha could require those employers to fix those problems. and so it's a pretty straightforward, you know, recounting with examples of how the agency is supposed to work. and i think, at that point, the agency was only about a decade old. and so there were lots of people who really didn't understand how the agency worked. >> the credits at the end credited almost the same number of companies and industries as it did unions, and the companies seem to willingly participate in this, even though it seemed to be somewhat critical of them, but they

there is the right to accompany osha inspectors on the walk-around of a plant. we believe that there are also rights of the employee to know what the hazards are in the workplace and the effects of those hazards. >> can you think of an example of something that's breathed and causes a cancer or a serious illness somewhere else in the body. >> carbon tetrachloride. chlorinated solvents like trichloroethylene. >> most of the health standards which osha has issued since 1971 have dealt with substances which pose a cancer risk to workers. >> particularly since world war ii, there's been thousands and thousands of chemicals put on the marketplace, most of which have not been tested as to their hazardous nature. the national institute for occupational safety & health puts out a registry of such chemicals and listed over 20,000 as being toxic. >> -- pretty thick in the air. you couldn't see through it. it looked more like a fog. it was all over the working area, all over the break area. >> i was asked to assist in the investigation of the kepone incident in hopewell, v

mills almost a 1 million dollars to meet osha's regulation. the company has protected the health of its workers for many years to come. >> very often, in concentrating on the apparent cost of achieving the regulation, we lose sight of the cost of not regulating at all. in the case of cotton dust, there are 40,000 documented cases of respiratory disease caused by exposure to cotton dust in the textile industry. that is a tremendous expense, not only to those workers and their families, but to society as a whole. >> workers are being injured, they're being diseased, losing their livelihood, having to have medical exams, medical care which very expendive. these costs are being borne by the workers who are the victims and society in pro providing medical care and relief for these people impoverished as a result of their victimization. >> certainly congress decided as a matter of national policy, it's more opiate to place the cost of protection on the employers who give rise to the exposure in the first place than to depend upon society to bare the

get osha in there.today there are 20,000 chemicals in the workplace that are suspected of being toxic. about one-fifth of all cancer cases are associated with exposure to chemicals on the job. and osha is working to reduce these dangers by setting more comprehensive rules. in addition to osha's presence, the unions are spending more time and money on safety training and devoting more complex language to health and safety. workers are demanding the right to see their own medical records, to be told the names and properties of the chemicals they worg with. to know the level of risk they take on with the job. >> we have been trying to get the company to give medical examinations for over two years. and so far, they haven't complied with any of osha's orders. >> osha had ordered the company to get comprehensive medical examinations to its workers. some handling the toxic chemical des. des is a female hormone that can cause sexual malformation. >> people at that time were working without respirators. and if

he ran osha from 2009 to 2017.also an epidemiologist, and served on the biden administration's covid transition task force. he's now a professor of public health at george washington university. david michaels, great to have you back on the "newshour". let's stipulate from the outset, this mandate has caused enormous controvers g.o.p. governors across the country are threatening lawsuits, there is likely to be a wave of litigation about this. we are not talking about that. we're talking about how this might unfold. from your experience at osha, how does this get enforced? >> osha doesn't need to do a lot of enforcement because most employers want to be law abiding and they will look at the rule and say how do we make the rule? their attorneys and hmm r. specialists will say this is what we feed to do so that alone will have a great impact. >> so you think employers even before the rule comes out and is officially stamped on u.s. government letterhead, they might actually roll this out in advance of that? >> our exp

you mean call osha? i had a legitimate complaint and they'd have someone get in touch with me. we sat and talked, drank a cup of coffee, explained the whole nine yards to him. >> it's so cold in there at nighttime, it would drop 42 degrees. which were putting on coats and sweaters. i complained to win any who was my manager. he complained to junior who was the overall district manager. he wouldn't do nothing. this went on two or three weeks. i told him one morning, i said i'm going to call the health department. there's got to be something someone can do. he said he didn't give a shit. wrong words to say to me, because i did it. this stranger walks in the building and takes over the kitchen. win any didn't have any idea who she was or what she was doing there. i was supposed to be there. there that lady is behind the counter working in my place. who is that? what is she doing in my place? >> that's when she told me my hours were cut. i said okay, junior is doing this to me, fine. i'll do something about

at that time we operated under the state osha plan.m the areas you want them checked, keep your name off of it. they're not allowed under the law to tell the companies who filed a complaint form. after being in for a couple months, they come up with nothing. they didn't have the equipment to do this testing. it's new equipment. so that's when we called niosh in. >> what's this thing going to do? >> all the testing that niosh did, they put these air sample things on to people, and they kept it on the people for an eight-hour period. >> you can't turn the pump off unless you check with one of the industrial hygienists who will be in the area. >> okay. this is the part you're looking forward to. >> they took blood tests. >> guaranteed to be semi painless. >> they took a urine test. >> i'm going to ask you questions about past illness. have you ever had hay fever? >> no. >> everybody we asked to participate did. i think everybody realized we had a problem and they wanted to find out. hey, i'm proud of it. when they were testing the tire ra

when osha says that this is what must happen in this workplace, if that is covered by federal osha, andnnot ask about the vaccination, it is in the constitution, and so many, many employers are extremely relieved. they have wanted to do this, and they want to make sure that the workers are comfortable coming back to work, and so many workers are hesitant to come back in, because they are worried about being exposed, and it is something that most businesses will want to do right now even before the rule officially goes into place. >> david michaels, who knew that we could have such a interesting conversation about osha and workplace safety regulations. >> i appreciate you asking me to come on. >> thank you. and chuck is going to be back tomorrow with more "meet the press daily." and our coverage continues with geoff bennett right after this break. ♪♪ it's the easiest because it's the cheesiest. kraft. for the win win. when i get a migraine, i shut out the world. but with nurtec odt that's all behind me now. nurtec is the first and only option proven to treat and prevent migraines with on

>> osha -- look.he president for three months said -- he didn't not do it because he didn't think he needed to do it. he affirmatively said, i don't have the legal authority to do mandates. now he's changed his mind. >> his original position he didn't want to go there. long as possible. esist it as - >> yes, he said that, but he also said in an answer, i don't have the legal authority to do this. >> it looks a lot like daca where president obama said he didn't have the authority and he did it anyway. this administration has done it with the eviction moratorium, and the courts struck it down, and their political thought i believe was that we can do this, and we'll get it for 30 days. >> isn't the gamble we have to move, and you'll come back another time, but isn't the gamble that in the in the meantime, more people will get vaccinated and they'll have to? >> after acting lawlessly and unconstitutionally, that's a risk in and of itself. >> where was that when donald trump was president? you allowed dona

then in june, osha's guidance suddenly changed to this "osha will not enforce recording requirementst require any employers to record what the side effects from covid-19 vaccinations." that was a major change. especially since we are still learning so much about these vaccines and their possible side effects. just hours ago, for example, the telegraph reported that "teenage boys are six times more likely to suffer from problems from the vaccines then being hospitalized from covid-19." in israel 80% of adults arere vaccinated, covid cases are spiking. israel has one of the world's highest daily infection rates. so let's explain that. in his remarks to the nation, joe biden didn't answer that. instead, he put osha at the same agency that has been hiding evidence of vaccine side effects in charge of forcing millions of americans to take the covid vaccine. joe biden didn't even bother to ask congress. he said the new mandate is justified because covid is "emergency." and he walked away without taking questions once again. let's look at the facts on average, more than 98% of covid-19 pati

so osha fines would go up. it could be a financial windfall for osha.the governing body gets the rec -- reconciliation bill through, they often said the current fine of 13,600 is not big enough. if the reconciliation goes through osha fines for serious violations would go up to$0,000 per incident. for repeat violations the fine would be $700,000. that means a company violating vaccine mandate could pay a fine of set ofty thousand -- $70,000 per incident. they have written fines of about $4 million f the reconciliation bill were law today, osha possibly stood to get $21 million from the same violations. critics worry the larger fines could allow osha to be the judge and jury to force small businesses and medium-sized businesses to close. the governor of georgia will sue or support anyone who does sue once the osha mandate rule comes through. he calls the fines, extreme overreach of the government. he says he would look at possibly supporting as i said, those lawsuits. now the white house says that they support mandates and those mandates do work on vacci

this work and does the federal government have the resources to enforce some of the penalties that oshaight put on private businesses that don't fulfill the requirements of either the vaccine or increased testing. >> and this is going to happen in a lot of different phases, chuck. the critical thing here first, chuck, the clock does start ticking for federal workers, contractors who now have the 75 days. but for all these other millions of americans who work at companies that have more than 100 employees, it's a little less clear what the timeline is going to look like. we do know from a covid briefing earl ier today that health experts anticipate it could take four to six weeks if not longer to just write that emergency rule and see how it is going to work. in the time frame of that and plus the legal fights that the white house is fighting and embracing for we're talking weeks, if not months, until we know how that is going to work. as you were just terms of wheree at with hospitalizations and death rates continuing to climb, think about the precious, precious lives that could be lost

the secretary of labor will oversee the remaking process with osha. we anticipate that will come in the coming weeks and will be implemented for all employers above 100 employees that need to get vaccinated or tested once per week. >> next question, lauren hirsch as the new york times. >> what is the punishment for companies that do not abide by the vaccination rule? jeff: this applies to companies with greater than 100 employees and if a workplace refused to follow the standard, the osha fines can be significant. they could include fines up to $13,600 per violation. next question. >> monica alba, nbc news. >> thank you so much. once boosters do become available in 10 days or so for those who got pfizer, what will be the standard for fully vaccinated? will it be two doses or three doses for those federal workers and contractors, in particular, for whom the 75 day clock starts ticking as of yesterday. jeff: dr. walensky. dr. walensky: we will pose that question to our advisory committee on immunization practices. currently fully vaccinated is two doses

this will be an osha emergency rule, right, through the statutory authority. sort of the legal challenges and what kind of footing it's on in protecting against them? >> well, of course, it's going to be challenged. many, many rules that the administration passes will be challenged, has been challenged already. and this one will be challenged based on the idea that the statute itself doesn't authorize the government to do what it's purporting to do. first of all, the statute itself is not going to be held unconstitutional. it was passed in 1970. it was passed under congress' commerce clause authority. that's rock solid. as for osha, the statute authorizes the government to require workers to be vaccinated or to have companies require their workers to be vaccinated. that is an issue of whether the administer procedure act allows this kind of authority to be exercised by the government, and it's really clear that from the osha, the statute, this is exactly the kind of thing the government can do. the fact that the government hasn't done this before on a federal

this is just the president directing osha to draft an ets. no one really knows exactly what it's going to say. but from what the white house released, we think it's going to say you either are vaccinated, or you with undergo weekly testing which sounds fine, but i would argue, you know, if it happens you get jabbed, you get stuck once a week. it's expensive. my former colleague at the council of economic advisers, ken has set, has estimated there might be -- kevin has set has estimated there might be 50 million workers who refuse to be vaccinated, and you're talking about $5-5.5 billion a week which is not a lot of money to bernie sanders, but it is to most other people and would, ultimately, be more than the corporate tax brings in in a year. so you're imposing a tax on either the workers or their employers to undergo this testing whereas, as i said earlier, the earlier ets from osha suggested that this panoply of less invasive measures, the personal protective equipment, the physical distancing, improved ventilation systems was going to be

osha has an original set of regulations that were passed at the beginning of osha decades ago and thensome additional regulations that were passed after notice and comment. what he is trying to do is announce them under this very rarely used emergency provision and the emergency provision provides that there must be some immediate, shocking, unusual threat to the workplace that is dire and there isn't time to go through the normal process to do this. that is obviously not the case here. we've been living with covid for 18 months. it's not even a pandemic anymore, it's an endemic, something we are living with. in the chief of staff actually retweeted a comment from somebody on twitter saying that this was actually a workaround to get around his promise that he wouldn't do a federal vaccine mandate. he's using osha, wink-wink, nudge nudge. >> jesse: if they are calling it a requirement. the lingo changed. speak of right, so i think it's totally illegal on the private employer side. public employers, you didn't mention the postal workers, they are not going to have to get vaccinated under

reasons. 80 million business workers that have 100 employees or more will also be required under the osha rules, which is either getting tested regularly or get vaccinated. the data tells us these requirements work to increase vaccinations. number two, a lot of businesses are relieved these are going into place. . host: that is from yesterday we will show you more from the sunday shows on what was said about mandates. we will get your thoughts on if you think it is the wrong approach, the right approach, perhaps you think -- you are not sure. duke in maine starts us off by saying he is not sure about the approach. caller: yes, good morning. i am not sure if this mandate thing is really the thing to do. i understand what biden has in mind, but, really, i have had my shot, in when i headed, i was led to believe that once i had the shot i was good to go, so i had my two series of shots, and now i find out we can still catch this covid even though we have had the shot, and that from what i am being told, we can be carriers even though we have had the shot. we have been told so many things. i

osha supervises employee safety.ends to requiring vaccines for people in companies bigger than 100 employees, you can be sure this is going to be challenged in court. i don't know the answer to that, but i do know this is certainly a shot across the bow by the justice department and by the white house, saying, look, we are sick of asking, we are now telling you get vaccinated. >> gloria, i expect we're going to hear from and see the governors of florida, texas, south dakota, a spate of republican senators come out soon. the president has shied away from these broad mandates for private sector, but now is seeing this is something that he thinks he has to do. >> as you were pointing out earlier, he's gone from the carrot to the sticks, because they feel they have no other choice. they want to get the economy moving and it won't stay moving if you let the delta variant spread. what they are doing today is setting a new minimum standard, just a minimum standard. they're also giving employers a way out, because it's contr

i talked with an osha lawyer today that said there could be problems with the osha rule specificallyit say grave danger that there is grave danger plus that it's truly necessary and the president himself today even said that the administration says a social distancing and masks are working so is there really an emergency mandate that's needed. plus, if you work remotely osha has no jurisdiction to go into your home to mandate. is likely to be challenged in court where 11 governors who have already said they are going to challenge this legally and some companies as you know already have some of their own mandates in place if workers come back in person. some are just new workers that have to get vaccines so there are some mandates in the private sector. charles: edward lawrence, thank you and the reaction from the business community isn't really surprising. biz business loves this, but small business already on the ropes really crying foul and they expressed serious dismay. there's a line here that stuck me the most, quote i'm staunchly pro- vaccination and strongly anti- mandate. pre

having osha to insure their workers with more than 100 employees are vaccinated. the mandate the administration said it would not and could not impose a mandate for the vaccine. edward, when i heard your reporting on this i couldn't believe it. it was quite a shocker. >> the president said it's not about personal choice or freedom. he's pushing the mandate on vaccines and in some sectors, masks. a president-elect biden said he did not support mask mandates. federal workers and contractors have to be vaccinated within 75 days. all medical workers receiving federal reimbursement need to be vaccinated. the big issue about be using osha to force companies to get workers vaccinated. >> the constitutional issues to me might not be as simple as the simple statute that requires osha to show a grave danger and the emergency standard is necessary. some of the statements we heard from the administration that masks work. if masks work, is vaccine and testing necessary? >> 11 state governors and the rnc planning legal action over this vaccine mandate. osha is mandating busines

osha will cover u.s. postal service through the emergency temporary standard meaning postal workers will be subject to the vaccination policy announced. they are federal employees but they will be covered too, right? >> exactly. biden proposal is not just cover federal -- cover private sector workplaces but also federal employees and federal contractors and there's a difference suite of authorities that applies to regulation of private sector and over the government. president biden is wisely invoking both lines of authority here. it is really striking to me that republican governors are challenging this. in one sense i think you can call it brave because if i had botched pandemic response the way they did, i'd never show my face in public again. let alone put my name on some sort of attack on a coronavirus policy. it's kind of like paul von hindenburg going on a national blitz tour. >> the other issue here is in terms of the way we have been living. we have been getting everything delivered. we all went

osha's comin' for you! ( cheers and applause ) yeah, osha! you heard me! the tough guys at osha are finally treating the plague with the same seriousness as not being able to stand on the last rung of a stepladder. apparently, you put one foot up there, your head will shear right off. in his speech, biden said vaccinated america's patience was running thin with the unvaccinated and it's time for them to step up and get their shots. america has a proud history of vaccine mandates. during a smallpox outbreak in 1777, george washington required his troops to be immunized. and who can forget the immortal words of paul revere: "one if by j&j two if by pfizer. the variants are coming! the variants are coming!" ( cheers and applause ) i'm angry! i've had it! get on your horse! buck it! ( laughter ) there is some lighter covid news out there, involving new zealand prime minister and my personal uber driver, jacinda ardern. global leaders have heard pretty much every question about covid- 19, but this week, ardern got a new one. >> there's also an allegation of sex

until this summer, osha require employees to retain records of any worker who suffered a serious side effect from the vaccine. then in june, the guidance suddenly changed to this. quote osha will not enforce a direct recording requirements that require any employers to report side effects from covid 19 vaccinations. that was a major change, especially since we are still learning so much about these vaccines in their possible side effects. just hours ago for example, the telegraph in britain reported that quote teenage boys are six times more likely to suffer heart problems from the vaccine then be hospitalized from covid 19. in in israel were more than 80 percent of adults are vaccinated, covid cases are spiky. israel has one of the world's highest daily infection rates. heat exclude that in his remark to the nation joe biden didn't answer that. instead, he put osha, the same agency that has been hiding evidence of vaccine side effect in charge of forcing millions o americans to take the covid vaccine. joe didn't even bother to ask congress for a he said the new mandate is justified b

voting on wednesday, this is the 3rd election since a new constitution was introduced in 2011 jamal osha. our votes now from casablanca, with restrictions binding, large scale, gathering, still in place. political parties and morocco are limited to holding small street to street. congress is as the vine for support of wednesdays elections. this year's polls are very different to previous ones. election billboards are few and far between. there have been no big rallies and there is an evidence lack of excitement amongst many americans. much of this down to the impact cove it has had on the country, particularly its economy, a key and here alarm, there's no doubt the pandemic will impact these elections and the entirety that they won't just the large scale protest voting. but i also expect many people will choose to abstain because the standard mac has dented the people's confidence in the political process. the miracle is currently trying to stave off another wave of the virus. and although it's done much better than its neighbors in combustion cove, it in terms of hospitalizations, it's

do you see this fight forcing osha, to get private sector workers vaccinated?o you think this is headed to the supreme court? >> well it does sound like there is some authority with medicare requiring nursing homes and hospitals as a condition of participation to require vaccinations and maybe with osha. that side of it i'm not as familiar with but i can tell you i believe in vaccines but that speech today framed the issue incorrectly. we don't have a pandemic of the unvaccinated. we have a pandemic of the non-immune. the way natural immunity was never mentioned once, despite maybe a third or half of those unvaccinated that is something we got to recognize is 27 times more protective in the israeli study. people have a good reason maybe to avoid vaccination especially front line health care workers out there getting covid taking care of patients last year. elizabeth: and i did, the osha, does not have the legal authority to require private sectors workers to get vaccinated. the supreme court already ruled that. district court rulings show that. this will be a m

so i'd remind you that the osha requirements or the osha regulations, which we hope to see more have more detail on in the coming weeks have not yet even been implemented for businesses of over 100, but already to date a number of companies, institutions, organizations have put in place requirements where we have shown , where we have seen rapid increases over a short period of time and vaccination rates. so one of the reasons the president made that announcement two weeks ago, because he knows we need to do more. we're going to continue to do more, and we're hopeful that that will be an impactful step as well. >> last matter, the atf nominee, david chipman, gave an interview today, which he said he did not hear from the white house again after being told that he was going to be in on the until he -- going to be the nominee until he was told he was not going to be the nominee. he's quoted as saying he felt like he was on an island and there was no plan to get his nomination through. did the white house drop the ball on this? jen psaki: well, first, we share david shipman's frustratio

it is osha, the occupational safety and health act. it keeps all of our workplaces safe. if it is from fire escapes to other matters anything that would keep from grave danger at your workplace. the white house believes after much research that this is the way they think they can get more people vaccinated because they believe this is a grave danger in the workplace. this is the legal strategy and legal framework they are going to go through here. despite all the bluster from republican governors across the country it will not be one of the republican governors filing suit. it will have to be a business owner and likely there will be one but the white house, the lawyers i talked to here today and across washington and beyond believe it is because of this osha act, an act by congress, again, not just a legislative or executive act, they believe they're acting under that framework of the grave danger in the workplace. again, the president said have at it. they seem to mean it, john. >> is there a sense of how prepared the administration is to implement and enforce these eit

the plan directs osha to mandate that any company with 100-plus eeemployees insure vaccinationsr havey tests. the cost would be on the company, and it would affect 80 million workers. on schools the plan requires people to be employed in head start and those programs that are government funded to be vaccinated. the president then calls on statements to require schools -- states to require school employees, including teachers, to be vaccinated. school systems should have regular testing for all kids aged kindergarten through 12th grade. >> we know that if schools follow the science and implement the safety measures like testing, masking, adequate ventilation systems which we provided the money for, social distancing and vaccinations, children can be safe from covid-19 in schools. >> reporter: the osha rule could go in effect in the next couple of weeks, it could be $14,000 in fines per violation if they're found to be breaking it. back to you. elizabeth: let's welcome to the show fox news contributor dr. marty makary, former labor secretary nominee andy puzder. first to you, doctor. th

osha is part of the labor department.nt itself goes forward i think this action is going to be legally vulnerable. the president did not say there is a grave danger in the workplace and this rule is necessary to address it. that's what osha will need to establish when it puts out its rule in the weeks ahead. >> bill: very interesting. $14,000 fine we talked about last hour per individual if the vaccination mandate is not enforced. how do you define grave risk? if you don't use that word or that phrase, how would you define that? >> dana: is there an example where they used it before? >> that's what's interesting as well. it is a special authority that is being used here by the labor department. ordinarily new rules by the government have to go through public comment. the public has a chance to see the proposal, to make suggestions and improving it. it is a process i used as secretary and that i use in the private sector. but they are seeking to bypass that. i would urge them to allow comment, to take public comment. there

osha's job is to protect the workplace.diseases are just as dangerous as having an accident in a meat-packing plant or coal mine. it could be more dangerous. it's absolutely within the jurisdiction of osha to be able to do that. i applaud the president for doing that. >> that's a professor's answer. emily, the same question. >> i think it's important that the aclu whose job it is protecting civil liberties supporting vaccine mandates because they don't seem actually effective alternative. this is the way science informs the legal picture. i think helps what professor gostin is saying. i do think there is a wild card here which is the police report. we have seen in previous cases that the court been quite eager to support petitions from churches or other organizations that did not want to abide by public rules. this was kind of last year's legal fight over covid. and so when one wonders if a church or religious group sues this vaccine mandate where the courts could stand. 100 years ago when we had some court cases during mom

the federal agency that should have assured the protection of all the people at ground zero was osha.upational safety health administration. osha deliberely did not enforce its standards for working on a dangerous site like that because giuliani insisted that he was in charge. he was the incident commander on the pile, and he maintained his control of all information and all activity at the pile long after what should have been a rescue operation. therefore, osha was not allowed by mayor giuliani to actually conduct its legally required business. as a result, many, many people ended up being exposed and getting sick and not having proper protection. we should never forget the role of rudy giuliani in allowing the situation to go on for so long. amy: and that was very different at the pentagon, which was also attacked, where they had the proper attire. we will talk with joe zadroga in a minute. the bill is the joe zadroga act, his son that has since died. back in a minute. ♪♪ [music break] amy: son by michael williams in "the wire," michael williams who has died at the age of 54 in bro

klain, biden's chief of staff who said the quiet part out loud when he retreat tweeted this message oshang vaccination mandate as workplace safety rule is the ultimate work around for the federal government to require vaccinations. a work around to full government control. that is what biden's top adviser is telling the american people. it's something that the biden administration has been eyeing since they took over but they didn't know how to do it until now. but what biden made abundantly clear last night is his contempt for 80 million unvaccinated americans. >> this is not about freedom or personal choice. many of us are frustrated with the nearly 80 million americans he had are still not vaccinated. we cannot allow these actions to stand in the way of protecting the large majority of americans who have done their part. >> rachel: what a stark change from the joe biden who spent his entire campaign and early presidency promising he would unite all americans. >> i will govern as an american president. i will work with democrats and republicans. >> unity also is trying to reflect what

with federal regulations, and already osha already since january has had things on the books, some of which are mandatory, some of which are recommendations recording covid-19. more over, osha has rules on the hepatitis b vaccine but that is something that only affects one person that might get hepatitis whereas being vaccinated not only protects the person getting the vaccine but everyone around them. there is no way he's going to win. >> so david, when you look at the texas governor greg abbott as you mentioned, you characterize him as a true believer. he tweeted yesterday quote protecting texans' right to choose. that's how he put it by standing up to biden's vaccine order. anybody who can't just look at that and shake their head, right, this is a guy defending his state's restrictive new law banning abortion after six weeks and explicitly jumping up and down preventing someone's right to choose. will voters care about a contradiction like this? he knows exactly what he's saying when he says i support your right to choose on the vaccine? he chose the words on purpose probably. he t

jen: i would point you to osha.e knew it would take time given there are very understandable and good questions by the business community. we want to ensure there is clarity when they put out the rules. businesses can employ it. it's become more popular. it's been successful in the vast majority of business that is have implemented mandates. reporter: what leverage do you believe the president has in political or in terms of specific pieces of the legislation, what leverage does the president have with democrats? jen: in terms of getting the agenda forward? reporter: i would say, one -- one is a hugely popular package, each item in itself. that's why i went through some of the specifics here. jen: has broad support among the american public. i would also say if you talk to most democrats who are in congress, certainly most democrats in the country, there is not disagreement about the fundamentals of what we are trying to achieve. and there is achievement agreement that we need to address the climate crisis. that we

he's doing this under 50-year-old law that allows the osha at the department of labor to put in place an emergency temporary standard. this has been done nine times in 50 years. in three instances it was relatively modest, wasn't challenged in court. in six instances it was challenged in court and lost five times. i think the president is doing this because he's afraid to go to congress to get the authority that makes it a law to do this. private companies have the ability to say to their companies to take the vaccine or fest or you don't have -- test or don't have a job but i don't think the federal government has the authority to do what the president's talking about. chris: there's no question the president's standing in the polls has slipped as the delta variant has spiked, and there's no question if you look at the polls the democrats are overwhelmingly in favor of vaccine mandates. so is it your sense that the white house feels, one, this is the way to deal with the real problem that they're getting hit on, and in addition, whether they win or lose, it's a good fight to pick wit