and ovik roy, senior fellow at the manhattan institute. gentlemen, welcome. ovik, let yes just start with you. this is a quick one, but i want to get it out. darrell issa subpoenaing sebelius. she won't come clean. he's been asking for documents, inside documents. who, what, where, what did the contractors tell her, what's it going to cost? >> i think it's a very significant development. as you said, sebelius has been stone walling. there's so much important information that we don't know. for example, the fact that they hadn't tested the system end to end, at least until a week before october 1st, and yet they still went ahead and launched this thing. they didn't have the security clearances set up, the security protections. the site crashed after 100 -- >> there are memos. >> there are memos. have the contractors not given memos? >> the contractors -- the memos on -- hhs knew about these -- >> the contractor said it's not ready. >> on paper. >> bob, on paper. is that's what we're going to discover? the contractors tried to warn them, they wouldn't listen? >

. >> ovik, you're saying these numbers may not apply to the individual market. we had a big story from the l.a. times. now the results are coming in in california, premiums going up 25%, 30%. here's the key point, i want everyone to comment on this. people are jamming into medicaid. medicaid is the ultimate winner in this sweepstakes. it's going to cost a fortune, it was not budgeted properly and medicaid is actually the least of all the insurance plans. what's up with that? >> so the way obama care was designed is there's a 30 million people who are supposed to get new health coverage under the law, half of that is under medicaid and half of that is under the exchanges. the numbers have changed since then because a number of the states have opted out of the medicaid expansion. but in general the exchanges in theory should provide a better insurance product than medicaid. medicaid's outcomes are terrible because you really don't have access to a doctor because a lot of doctors don't take medicaid. with the exchanges, the government is saying the plans have to co