pakistan's humiliating defeat in its 1971 war against east pakistan continues to haunt pakistan's predominantly punjabi military establishment. begun as a protest for rights and economy, it transformed into a war with india and created the independent nation of bangladesh. following the war against the soviet union in the 180s, pakistan used used the mujahided subsequently the taliban to settle o old scores, but pakistan's military continues to fear a direct confrontation with the pashtun tribes on its western border. this fear makes pakistan's relationship with the taliban convoluted and volatile and, perhaps, unreso far bl. -- unresolvable. making token attacks on those taliban that do not seven its interesting, although even in this pack stab's -- pakistan's commitment is not what it seems. while mostly reserving its high-tech weapons given to it by the united states for a potential war with india, pakistan's military sets the poorly-trained and poorly-equipped pashtun frontier corps against the punjabi taliban setting up their own pashtun-controlled punjabi taliban among the disillusioned y

we're here to talk about pakistan and the u.s.-pakistan relationship.we have to of the top and was here in washington with us. it's going to be a terrific session. just human rights is bruce riedel, at the brookings institute. we don't hold that against him though. is the author of a recent terrific book on pakistan called deadly embrace. bruce is the longest in which career in government and he was famously led president obama's afpak review in 2009. bruce, thank you for being here. tone is the chair and strategy at cia -- csis. is by the most prolific and well-known scholar. tony has also a long and established career in government. in may he authored a report looking at national net assessment on pakistani entries way back from afghanistan as well. tony one the coin toss. he will speak first for 15 minutes. bruce will fall and then we will have a conversation among the three of us and open it up to questions from the audience. tony, please, the floor is you yours. >> good afternoon. if i may apologize in advance. i am going to use powerpoint occasion

urban areas to pakistan. however, they didn't consider taliban guerrillas in the mountains of the northern province as a threat, and by the way, yes, the northwest frontier of the country is lashkar-e-taiba. i'm familiar. this happened at a time when some of these groups began to target the military and the civilian populations by puts bombing in marketplaces, employing up tribal jergas and attacking them directly and attacks family of the militaries. they did an attack at a mosque which was attacking the families of the military. we'll recall that incident just a couple years ago. this was an attack on muslims praying in a mosque in the military sector so now the terrorists are tapping the military. i think the perception is changing as to, you know, what is the terrorist threat to pakistan. let's ask about specifically the isi role in the taliban. a lot of people have written that taliban is a covert action of the isi. there's a lot of evidence to support that thesis. if you readset jones, -- seth jones arg

pakistan will determine the future of pakistan, not americans. i think there are a couple of course corrections that might help. one is what i call accountability. for the last decade, almost for the last two decades, we have been telling pakistan to stop playing both sides of the game in the world war against al qaeda and related terrorist groups. we have yelled at them. we have reason with them. we have argued with them. we have cajoled them. we have tried to bribe them. we have tried to isolate them. it has not worked. reluctantly, i come to the conclusion we have to make it personal. we have to tell pakistan that if we identify the officer who worked to set up the attack on mumbai, we are coming after him. we are coming after him either by grabbing his assets, arresting him when he travels, or will come after him with extreme measures. this will not be easy. this will not be pretty. i am glad i do not have to be the cia chief of station who delivers this message. that is one hell of a liaison relationship to manage. but i do not see any other

that is more needed in pakistan.n china, pakistan can continue to collaborate for security reasons, big projects also, but the largest support needs to come from outside, and it's expected to come from the united states. >> rose: thank you for coming. hassan abbas, and pir zubair shah from "the new york times" and shuja nawaz from the atlanta counci mesh to have you on the program. ♪ ♪ . >> rose: larry kramer, a normal heart, first appeared on broadway 26 years ago. a powerful look the early days of aids and what it's like to be a gay man in new york city, with 56,000 people becoming infected every year and 1.1 million people living with h.i.v. the play is as relevant today as it was in 1985. it's on broadway for the first time and getting rave reviews. it has received five tony award nominations and here i a look. >> you can get dressed. i can't find what i'm looking for. >> needed? needed for what? what is it you're trying to get me to do. >> you have to tell gay men to stop having sex. [laughter] >> i'm sorry, wha

we are here to talk about pakistan and the u.s.-pakistan relationship. to my right is bruce riegel with brookings. he has authored a very great book on pakistan recently. he has a long and distinguished career in the government in the famously lead the afpak review. he is probably the most prolific and well-known scholar. tony also has a long and distinguished career in government. he authored a report looking at pakistan. tony won the coin toss and will go first. bruce will follow. then we will have a discussion and open the floor for questions. tony, please. >> the good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. i actually will use a power point. i will use it very quickly. if you want to actually look at it, we have given you a sheet which indicates where these are on the internet. since i will tie this to a recently learned in pakistan, we will be reference to a report that will bring you up-to-date on the situation there. let me begin by saying that i think the operative aspect of this session is the phrase "parallel course." to be perfectly honest, in a real

it... these are unfair allegations on pakistan. pakistan has done so much. we have lost over 3,000 soldiers and officers in this war. we have cleared so many areas. so many al qaeda leaders have been apprehended by our intelligence agencies. of course, there was a sharing of intelligence with the other side, as well. so, with these kind of performance and record, if still someone is not satisfied, then we are not to be blamed in this. >> smith: but frontline's investigation found that taliban leaders still move freely around the country. my colleague, stephen grey, made contact with a taliban commander currently sheltering in pakistan. he arranged to meet him just outside the capital, islamabad, not far from where osama bin laden was killed. the commander told us how dependent the taliban is on sanctuary in pistan to wag war across the border. >> grey: is the border hard to cross? >> frank, we don't know on any given time or day what side the pakistanis are on. there is overwhelming evidence that, you know, even as the pakistani government takes, you know, b

i couldn't face riding pakistan. afghanistan for some reason was very easy to write and i could not face riding pakistan. it was ryder's block. i was only riding the funny bets. i didn't even put it together and then i went to visit my mother for ten days over christmas which is a great way to write a book because if you ever consider doing it you realize you have an excuse to get away from your mother for half the they. my mother likes to talk a lot about feelings and the motions and in like that. i would take half the day and write the book and then come and read it to her. i wrote all of pakistan in those ten days. i wrote about 5,000 words a day. it was all inside me waiting to come out and i needed my mom around almost to hold my hand and walked me through it. my parents didn't know any of the stuff i would for because you are protecting them. it was really sort of difficult for her as well to hear everything i went through. people always say you wrote a funny book. what is funny about this? parts are very funny

cnn reported he sought a deal with pakistan in which he would not attack pakistan in exchange for protection. we do not know whot government was aware of bin laden's preps, but i am certain that some pakistan officials knew he was living in plain sight, not exactly the average house in an ordinary neighborhood. it stuck out like a sore thumb. it's difficult to determine how many groups operate out of pakistan, but we do know al-qaeda, the afghan taliban and the pakistani taliban and others use this country as a staging ground for attacks on u.s. troops to kill american citizens and terrorize countries throughout the world. for example, omar, the spiritual leader of the pal ban is -- taliban is believed to the in pakistan. others hiding in yemen, the equivalent of the bin laden of the internet. he provides spiritual guidance recruiting terrorists via youtube and facebook and inspired more than two dozen treasure plots at the united states in two years. the fort hood shooter e-mailed him on numerous occasions before killing 13 people including soldiers and wounding 30 others. abdul, the christ

in light of the current conditions in pakistan with the relationship between pakistan and the united states and with the current projection of force drawdown in afghanistan, do you believe that we will still be in as general rodriguez says, in good shape with our operations in afghanistan and efforts to defeat the taliban and ultimately displace al-qaeda with the current situation in pakistan and with the proposed draw down. >> i think that calculus depends on how things go in afghanistan, not completely, but significantly, and -- well, at the same time, they're going through an incredible difficult time right now, not just -- not just in the relationship with the united states, but also internally, particularly their military because of what they've been through, and i said before, and i will just repeat the entire chape of the chand in the united states through the president thinks it's important to sustain the relationship even through its most difficult times, and it's actually heartened by the fact we are going through a very difficult time, and, in fact, the relationship is sti

by pakistan. -- feels threatened by pakistan. it will not wind up that way in of absence ia some kind political resolution. they defend themselves going forward. you were right. this is a route excuse. i'm sure if you do hear different things. i do not think that they are necessarily contradictory. i think they are all parts of what is an incredibly complex situation. it is within the inches to be able to defend itself again both overt and covert challenges. finally, i think it is important for us to maybe take a step back and look at the other countries they have made investments in. there were differing historical reasons. you look at the decades of our investment in south korea. you look at the cruise co -- coups that took place. you look at the thousands of troops. this is a vibrant democracy. it is a very strong economy. can we the back and say we could have left in 1967. we will let them fend for themselves. they were in a dangerous neighborhood. it has been an american strategy to withstand

the pakistan government were to fall and pakistan were to descend into chaos or be taken over by groups, that would be worse. we have to make this relationship worse. to work. it is not going well. pakistan is not as cooperative as they should be in fighting the extremist groups for a variety of reasons. we have to try to maintain the relationship. it will be tough. the goal is to have a government in pakistan that can stand. we will have to keep working through that for all the difficulties it presents. >> do you support establishing benchmarks or attaching strings? is there a way we can be pushing and pulling the aid money more? >> there are already strings and benchmarks. they are creative about getting around those but they are in place. we will have to do that and work with them. we will have to place greater limits on the money we're sending. at the same time, getting their corporation is inhabited by the fact that the pakistan the population does not like us. they are democratically elected government at the moment. they have to be responsive to their constituents. anything we ca

to do that, we have to maintain a relationship with pakistan.ght now, that will involve some financial support. >> a few days ago, president hamid karzai gave a very strong anti western, anti-american speech. he characterized nato as not in his country's interests, that we were there to of -- occupied afghanistan and we have different interests than the afghan people. how difficult is that making things for the u.s. and nato in terms of trying to produce a favorable outcome in afghanistan? and you spoke of our interest in maintaining stable government there. you think that karzai cannot stand on his own 2 feet? >> it is not just a matter of having to stay and fight because the greater the numbers, the greater the likelihood of success. the greater the number, the greater the likelihood that leaders like hamid karzai will come under pressure. that is part of why that drawdown is necessary. as far as whether or not our government -- the government there could stand if we left right now, probably not. that is why we have to do it over a time line.

and mind of the current conditions in pakistan, with the relationship between pakistan and the united states and with the current projection for straw down in afghanistan, do you believe that we will still be as general rodriguez says i'm in good shape with operations in afghanistan and at first to defeat the taliban and am also willing villages face al qaeda with the current situation in packets dan and the proposed shutdown? >> i think pakistan's drive down will depend on how things go and at the same time they're going through an incredibly difficult time right now, not just in the relationship with the united states, but also internally, particularly their military because of what they've been through. and i said euphoria never just eat the entire chain of command in the united states for the president thinks it's important we sustain this relationship even through his most difficult times. i'm actually heartened by the fact that we been through -- we are going through difficult times and in fact the relationship is still there. i'm just chastened by the past but we said no when t

pakistan in exchange for protection. at this point we do not know who in the pakistani government was aware of osama bin laden's presence. but i'm certain that some pakistan officials knew that he was living in plain sight. not exactly the average house in an ordinary neighborhood. it stuck out like a sore thumb. it is difficult to determine how many terrorist groups operate out of pakistan but we do know al qaeda, the afghan taliban and the pakistani taliban and other groups use this country as a staging ground for attacks on u.s. troops to kill american citizens and terrorize countries throughout the world. for example, mullah omar the spiritual leader of the taliban, is believed to be in pakistan. anwar al-awlaki is hiding in yemen. he is the equivalent of the bin laden of the internet. he provide spiritual guidance and recruits terrorists via youtube and facebook. hughes had inspired more than two dozen terror plots against the united states over the past two years. the portrait shootershooter, nidal hasan, e-mailed

pakistan's mother terrie, cross swords, pakistan, its army and the war within.earch scientist at the rand corporation and prior to that he was for 29 years in the cia both the director of operations and the directorate of intelligence and responsible for planning and implementing programs on counterterrorism, counter insurgency and counternarcotics. the third speaker is karen deyoung, senior diplomatic correspondent and associate editor of "the washington post" and directed the post award winning coverage of the white house, the congress and foreign news operations, and as mentioned, she wrote a really fantastic piece in the post over the weekend regarding the activities or the devotee of insurgent groups to vacate bombing making facilities after they had been informed after the pakistan authorities had been informed of the location of these facilities. my name is walter andersen and next year i'm going to be heading the south asia program here. now most of you have come here to get answers to important questions regarding pakistan's premier military organizatio

also helping because pakistan is because our partner. >> well, pakistan has received $13 billion in since the 9/11 attacks. but despite those diplomatic words, over the years the relationship has always been tense. it got worse after u.s. navy seals tracked down bin laden and tonight threatens to worsen even more. the news broke last night, "new york times" recording that pakistani authorities rounded up five cia informants, people who reportedly helped the cia by writing down the license plates of cars coming and going from bin laden's compound which by the way was just down the road from pakistan's military academy. we've since learned there are low-level sources -- the informants are very low-level sources and there's little the u.s. government can do to help them. but their arrest is telling. instead of hunting down anyone who might have helped him live there comfortably, helped the people who helped bin laden for years, pakistan seems to be hunting down the people who helped america find him. as far as taking a hard look at whether bin laden had a pakistani support network, the

of operation for cia and pakistan. the operations on the ground, having american spies on the ground, doing surveillance recruitment. they want to make sure that we are not running around like we did with bin laden. >> the relationship has been described as complicated. i would say it is putting it pretty lightly. will the afghan and pakistani president be discussing the solutions and will the taliban have to be brought into the fold? >> that is the only thing that's -- president karzai knows he cannot sit at the table and reach an agreement without the pakistani government buying into it. he needs to create an understanding that there is a way forward. the u.s. might withdraw fairly soon and before you know it, the u.s. would be out of afghanistan and the current strategy is not working. they're trying to come up with a plan which would bring the taliban to the table. >> this pakistan have the same interest in destabilizing pakistan and helping the extremist that had over the last decade? >> of the plainfield has alte

in the case of pakistan, who determines what is pakistan's national interest?s this the army and isi? there are no representatives of the people to determine the policy, whether it is terrorism or with respect to india and the united states. the question is whether it is constitutional within the pakistani law for either side to determine pakistan's foreign policy. if it is not, what does that make isi? and the pakistani people, if they are looking for people responsible for the state in pakistan, where it has enemies within and without, if this is the result of the foreign policy, who is responsible? who is in control and whether it is constitutional? >> it is a question of decision making. who makes the decisions on policy. >> if i could try. politics a bore is a vacuum. -- abhors a vacuum. when a refuses' responsibility and refuses to direct the military one where the other, then the military steps in and starts making those decisions. in the case of operations in the province, in 2008, there was a joint resolution. at the end of that, the army chief was mad

and the business communities in pakistan, which is the bright spot in pakistan should engage more actively on that because it is in everybody's interest. .. alliance of the of pakistani and establishment still see extremist groups in afghanistan as part of the nation's strategic depth with regard to india and what role should others plea in the process specifically iran, china and india. >> that's a fundamental question and i spent a week in january and got to interact with many of the senior military intelligence officials as well as academics tribal areas a little bit. in one of the takeaways from that visit which is surprising is that it was clear that pakistan wants to see this conflict maxtor result and it's equally clear that they were extraordinarily concerned they would be left with a mess on their doorstep that would be a redheaded stepchild where they would have to care for for the next decade or more after the united states left so i think one of the important things the u.s. needs to do as soon as possible and president obama's speech next month in july is to dispel some of the

>> pakistan is a friendly country.ons with pakistan for many, many years. >> pakistan is an important friend and ally for the united states. >> the united states does indeed consider pakistan a strategic partner and a good friend. >> clearly, pakistan is clearly a very strong ally of the united states in this. >> we're also hoping because pakistan is a partner. >> pakistan has received $13 billion in military aid since the 9/11 attacks. but despite those diplomatic words, over the years the relationship has always been tense. it got worse after u.s. navy seals tracked down bin laden and tonight threatens to worsen even more. the news broke late last night, "new york times" reporting that the pakistani army rounded up cia informants, who helped the cia by writing down the license plates of cars coming and going from bin laden's compound which by the way was just down the road from pakistan's military academy. we've since learned -- the people have been arrested. the informants are very low-level sources and there's litt

-- do you mean the pakistan reaction or pakistan itself? >> pakistan's reaction. >> i actually have not gotten it yet. i spoke to my pakastani counterpart yesterday. we agreed to talk in the near future after he is able to sort of absorb it. from the standpoint of help -- how pakistan views the future, they see a stable, peaceful afghanistan as the goal they too would like to see as a result of this overall strategy. they live there. seeing is believing. over time, exactly how they view this will be determined on how this works, i think. i also think they are clearly going through a very difficult time right now from a strategic standpoint. i and many others believe, including the president, that we have to sustain this relationship as difficult as it is. this is a country that has a significant terrorist problem. it is a country whose economy is very weak. it is a country with nuclear weapons that is in a very dangerous and strategically important part of the world. i think not just the united states, but the regional countries need to con

and pakistan as a key van yabl here.f that's not going well, counter terrorism efforts will be hurt. >> counter terrorism efforts are really important. i think if you talk to the generals on the ground, i they say the counter insurgency efforts themselves must also continue. i think that's the concern, if we pull back 10,000 troops, counter insurgency efforts will be quite successful. now they move into the east, will suffer significantly. >> we see the battle lines being drawn between those two policies as well. >> thank you all for being with us. up next, the politics of war in the presidential campaign. our "roundtable" weighs in on the newly dudish republican candidates. and later, president obama in a father's day exclusive with abc's robin roberts. tips from the parent in chief on raising teenage daughters in the white house. >> i have men with guns that surround them often, and a great incentive for running for re-election is that it means they never get in a car with a boy who had a beer. >> announcer: this week

the day that chairman kerry left pakistan, the prime minister of pakistan went up to china saying chinaington post" there's an article in there again today where pakistan is clearly courting china, and i would dpen express my hopes as one area where i think china seriously could do more to legitimize the status that it now has in consonance with the economic and military power that's grown and in a way that could be positive. they're going to be a great beneficiary if this region does regain the stability, and they clearly need to be more overt or i would hope they would be more overt in trying to bring about a solution. now, i want to say two things really quickly here, and then i'm sorry, i'm afraid if i ask you a question, i'm going to run out of time, but the first is in your statement. you mentioned this new strategic partnership declaration, and i met with the afghani ambassador yesterday. he mentioned this. he said that they are seeing this as an executive agreement, and that they -- they, the afghanis, believe there's going to be some sort of a document within the next couple mo

and pakistan couldn't get more twisted, tangled, and complicated, we learn that the isi, pakistan's top spy agency has arrested several suspected informants for the cia. these are pakistani men who allegedly fed information to the cia before last month's big raid on the bin laden compound. this according to two security officials. it's not clear why they've been arrested, where they are, and what if anything they're being charged with. one of the men is reportedly an army major who allegedly wrote down license plates of vehicles going in and out of the compound, but one of our sources, a security official says, that's not true. that none of the men arrested is an army officer. security officials do tell us that some of the individuals in custody were staying at a safe house rented by the cia to serve as a lookout on to the bin laden compound. these arrests obviously raise some questions, again, about pakistan's top spy agency. why has the isi been arresting informants for the cia when they were supposed to be onboard with u.s. efforts to go after bin laden? you would think they would pr

, that pakistan would be helpful to the u.s. bad relations are? >> well, pakistan military has been helpful in the past. but certainly growing anti-american sentiment will be a lot more problem. it will make more difficult for the pakistani leadership to cooperate with the united states. but that will also depend on what approach washington takes in the next few months as far as the fight is concerned. there are a lot of points of convergence between the united states and pakistan . in that case, i think they will cooperate. i think there's comprehension about the unilateral action which we've seen infusing over the last few months. >> journalist and author hussain giving us perspective from pakistan. thank you. >>> one of the towns is one of the country's most volatile areas. lies just west of kandahar, that's where the taliban was founded. and as nick paton walsh reports, the town of lashkah gah may represent what afghanistan will become. >> reporter: when president obama talks about handing afghanistan back, lashkah gah is th

this is a discussion in pakistan. are we really an independent country or just doing what the united states tells does to do. >> ifill: we look at the pentagon papers, 40 years after the secret study on the escalation of the vietnam war was leaked to the "new york times." >> brown: and former supreme court justice john paul stevens talks about his years on the bench and the shifting dynamics of the court. >> everything has changed over the years. my own view is that there's been a change on the court every time a new member has been appointed. >> ifill: that's all ahead on tonight's newshour. major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> oil companies have changed my country. >> oil companies can make a difference. >> we have the chance to build the economy. >> create jobs, keep people healthy, and improve schools. >> ...and our communities. >> in angola chevron helps train engineers, teachers and farmers, launch child's programs. it's not just good business. >> i'm hopeful about my country's future. >>

pakistan has alternatives to us. it likes to exaggerate the size of these alternatives, but they do have them. >> there is another side of this. that is simply trade logistics. there has been a lot of talk. pakistan is not a particularly attractive structure for china. it is not a particularly good group for pipelines and roads unless you believe it is completely secure and you have real reason to move from the indian ocean north. when you look at what china is doing, is not financing a major road through pakistan but one through to run -- tehran. that is a massive investment for china. the other is for obvious economic reasons you have funding for east/west communication lines. you have a rather peculiar subculture of people who are fascinated by afghanistan and pakistan. on the other hand, you have it on the map. they are moving east, west, in north. >> you mentioned the arab spring. is a possible to see this popular uprising? is it possible to see it in pakistan? you have a lawyer movement. it fizzled out. could t

well pakistan has urged the u.s. to shut down and leave an air base in that country southwest the facility has served as a launching pad for washington's drone attacks against taliban and al qaeda targets on the afghan border of relations between the two allies have been on a downward spiral for months terry rating after american forces killed osama bin laden in early may and for more on this we can talk now to accident political analyst a medical writer joining us live from islamabad thank you very much for joining us the announcement comes as our relations between the two countries are already strained since the a cia killed al qaeda leader osama bin ladin in may now is this direct retaliation do you think yes it is it is in a way a direct retaliation but there are there is of course another reason the and that is being the u.s. is not is no longer they are using has done even sillies and pakistani bases the name for the use payments was the c.s.f. that's equal in support fund and the u.s. was pain pakistan under t

you were in pakistan last week.hat was the government's explanation when you met with our military, when you met with the isi officials, what was their explanation for arresting, detaining five people that helped the united states find bin laden? >> to begin with, they told us that they felt that these individuals were working against their own government. what we -- we were going to acknowledge -- if they were working for us at all. we know why we cannot do that. what we said to them, though, was -- that these were individuals that were attempting to help fight the war against terror. to try to help pakistanis and to help them in fight the war against terror. and my issue was -- what we also communicated to them, why are you looking for people to help bring bin laden to justice? why aren't you looking for people who had knowledge that bin laden, top terrorist in the world, was living in pakistan very close to your capital? the response back to them. >> eric schmidt, that raises a big question here. what's the top p

and pakistan. >> leon panetta testifies. he was asked about military operations in iraq, afghanistan, and libya and talked about the budget. he has served as rector since 2009. senator carl levin will join the hearing in a minute. we will also hear interjections from dianne feinstein and barbara boxer. leon panetta served in the united states congress from 1977 to 1994. this hearing is 3.5 hours. >> the morning. this morning the committee meets to consider the nomination of leon panetta as secretary of defense. he is no stranger to testify before congress. over the course of his career, we welcome you to the committee today. the thank you for your dedicated service to our nation. nd your willingness to enter the call once again. we know your wife is not able to be here with you today. she has made her own sacrifices over the last 50 years, supported your efforts in the public and private sectors. i know that i speak for the committee when i say that we love to think her in person for the sacrifices that she has made. please

has stepped up drone strikes in pakistan. and pakistan in a number of casualties that result because of the drone strikes. like the taleban. in other groups in pakistan to recruit new members and they're doing their. salary base washington now sees yemen as the most dangerous al qaida outpost and he's planning to step up drone attacks on the country establishing a. facing the persian gulf specifically for that purpose especially now when bin alonso replacement i am and also worry is not to be building up all quite as already significant presence in yemen. the us had been cooperating with yemeni counterterrorism forces in targeting al qaida but they've since left the field preoccupied is that with the nationwide turmoil against the sollie regime that means the americans are likely to have a freer hand going it alone with the cia to take a central role because the agency is not subject to the accountability the us military is legally under expect more bombs to fall on yemen when the us starts to hit people who are members of al

pakistan. we got bin laden. but now pakistan's intelligence service is rounding up the people who helped us get him. i'll ask a former cia officer, is this revenge? >>> and america under siege. a new wave of cyber attacks threatens to crash our systems, from power grids to banks to national defense. edie hill asks an expert, is this our next pearl harbor? >>> then, are we at war in libya? a group of congressmen say of course. president obama says no. so now they're going to court. now, for more on our top story, what's keeping the u.s. economy from turning around? jobs, jobs, jobs. we all know that. almost 25 million americans are unemployed or underemployed. all say that number again. almost 25 million americans either not working or forced to work part time. my guest tonight knows a whole lot about jobs and the american economy as vice chairman of general motors, bob lutz has been at the top of the auto industry. in fact, he helped turned the industry around. he talks about that in his new book "car guys versu

wants pakistan to go after the support network which allowed bin laden to hide in plain sa sight, pakistan has arrested and interrogated five people suspected of helping the cia pull off the raid. it's all part of a spy versus spy game the u.s. plays with one of its most important applies, and defense secretary gates told democratic senator patrick leahy, get used to it. >> how long do we support governments that lie to us? when do we say enough is enough? >> based on 27 years in cia and four and a half years in this job, most governments lie to each other. that's the way business gets done. >> reporter: although cia drone strikes against terrorist safe havens in pakistan's border area continue without letup, pakistani intelligence at the same time actually protect some of the terrorist groups. the cia gave pakistan the location of two compounds where the explosives smuggled across the border to kill american soldiers in afghanistan are manufactured. someone in pakistani intelligence apparently alerted the terrorists who immediately emptied out the compounds. right now the pakistanis are p

when they're in pakistan or across the border. we were just in pakistan, we had a very detailed, very heart to heart brother to brother dialogue. and i sincerely hope very, very much that that dialogue will yield results for the good of all of us. >> you sound like you're getting soft on pakistan because you're going to have to live with them as american forces draw down. >> well, we have learned to do things that we can do, that we find affordable for us. >> let me ask you finally, mr. president, back to the central question. if american troops draw odown a the security conditions worsen, the afghan national army is not able to cheer and holear and ho taken security in parts of afrg, would you foe back to president obama and say -- and ask him to revisit the issue and perhaps reverse therawdown? >> i will not do that. it is the responsibility of the afghan people to protect their country and to provide security for the citizens of the country. and if you fail in fulfilling our most important responsibility with regard to our coun

in fact, when chairman kerry returned from pakistan, the prime minister of pakistan made a statement to china and was welcomed and stated that china was pakistan's greatest record i wish you the best and i am grateful that you are undertaking this. i look forward to visiting new and perhaps continuing our discussion. >> thank you. ambassador crocker, i join my colleagues in thank you for your willingness to continue to serve the country. i certainly stand ready and i'm sure all this do to be helpful to you if you take on this new assignment. i know you have not had a chance to review the report that was released this morning from the committee. i think it provides a renewed perspective on how difficult the challenges are in afghanistan. it particular highlights the civilian challenges and much of that has been discussed by others here. the report certainly underscores the need for our reconstruction projects in afghanistan to be necessary, achievable, and sustainable. i know there have been some concerns about the projects undertaken under the sirp program. i share concerns about how

youliev-- is in pakistan. >> i do. >> what do they say? >> part of the discussion secretary clinton and i had were very specifically focud on th prinl patargets we are interested in and you mentioned them. they are atia who is the what i what call the operations head for al-qaeda is this as well. and we have broht as much pressure and discussion as we uld on them to take action to elimate that threat. and that's just part of what we're going through with th right now. from an al-qaeda standpoint what the pakistan tells me the military leadership, that they don't want them there either. we continue to work through the relationship in terms of how we work together to eliminate that threat. i think omar and the whole taliban thing, you can extend this to the network which is the taliban network which focuses on eastern afghanistan. >> charlie: and supplies. >> and it does, it supplies fighters to come in and kill coalition soldiers, american soldiers. so these are, this is part of the discussion. i think we've made it very clear, we're not go

>> you mean the pakistan reaction or the pakistan itself? >> pakistan's reaction to the decision to have a slight troop drawdown? >> i actually haven't gotten it yet. i spoke with my pakistani counterpart yesterday, and as we made many contacts, and so we agreed to talk in the near future after he is able to sort of absorb it. from a standpoint how pakistan views the future and it's consistent across their government, they see a stable, peaceful afghanistan as a goal they, too, would like to be a result of this overall strategy. they live there, seeing is believing, and over time exactly how they view this will be determined on how this works. i think, personally. i also think that they are clearly going through this -- a very difficult time right now from a strategic standpoint, i and many others believe, including the president, that we have to sustain this relationship. as difficult as it is. this is a country who has a significant terrorist problem. it is a country whose economy is very weak and a country with nuclear weapons that is in

but pakistan is, and they were looking at american nationals also. they are unhappy about the range of undeclared, and disclosed cia operations in pakistan culminating in the raid, but by no means limited to that. >> the bigger problem seems to be the pakistanis do not really seem to know who they want to please, whether it is america or the army or public opinion. >> i think for the first time in a long while, the pakistani army and the intelligence service are on the defensive. pakistanis are unhappy. they feel is a paramilitary is not doing an adequate job. the raids made people worried that their protectors were not sufficiently strong and protective. on its face, i have to say, is not surprising that pakistan is up set it pakistani citizens are talking to a foreign intelligence service. that is a no-no. we do not like when foreign governments, even friendly governments -- israel france -- talk to our nationals, so that is not surprising, but the breach is something much deeper than that. >> the army seems to be perhaps the only institution in pa