most of them were captured in pakistan. osama bin laden was killed in pakistan. what is it about pakistan? >> well, i would ask you what was it about afghanistan. that is where they were, i believe. and we are a country -- >>. >> rose: i will tell you what it is about afghanistan. mullah omar gave them safe haven. >> but after the americans came and you have success in afghanistan and thought the situation was so great, that another war could be launched it was still taliban in afghanistan. and even after ten years, after a trillion dollar war, they still taliban in afghanistan. >> do you think the united states made a grievious mistake in shifting its focus to iraq. >> i do. >> rose: if they stayed in afghanistan would have a different afghanistan today. >> i believe if-- . >> rose: a state that focused just on afghanistan. >> if the focus stayed on afghanistan, if the focus had stayed on democracy, not just in afghanistan, all over the region, i think there was-- too much was left for a military dictate tore do. and there is always a border-- there is also a po

pakistan says it offers only moral support for the insurgents. groups like human rights watch blame militant groups, but they also finger indian security forces for widespread abuses under the guise of rooting out militants. india insists that most are infiltrators from pakistan-held regions and beyond. tens of thousands of civilians have died or gone missing. kashmir's grand mufti, the top religious leader recognized by india's government, also blames both sides for excesses, and his numbers are much higher. >> since 1989, when the situation became more critical, hundreds of thousands of people are missing and hundreds of thousands more have been killed. we have no knowledge of where they are. the killing continues unabated, and the situation is still simmering. >> reporter: in recent years, the kashmir dispute has taken on a new dimension as india has announced plans to build several dams, seeking hydroelectric powefor its fa-growing economy. but kashmir's rive also irrigate the breadbaskets of both india and pakistan. so far there have been no

muslim majority areas we to form the new republic of pakistan. but kashmir had a hindu ruler and he opted under pressure to join india. that set off the first of three major wars between india and pakistan, ending in a ceasefire with india controlling about two-thirds of kashmir, pakistan most of the rest. the so-called "line of control" that divided kashmir has served as an international border for 65 years, but kashmir has festered as a sore point between the islamic republic of pakistan and mostly hindu india. although the conflict has long been cast in religious terms, joseph schwartzberg, a leading scholar on kashmir, says it's more complicated than that. and within kashmir, he says, there's a long tradition of tolerance. >> the hindus frequently attended religious ceremonies that were held by muslims, and the converse was also true. in terms of actual day-to-day religious practices, it's a fairly eclectic area, and the type of strident militaristic islam that we think of when we think of, say, the middle east -- that was not present in kash

>> pakistan. >> rose: certainly pakistan. but in an urban environment or in the north? >> i would say based on the drone strikes against senior al qaeda leaders today he's probably out of range of drones. so... which would force the u.s. to do something along the lines of what they did against bin laden is put american forces into helicopters and push them deeper into pakistani territory. that's a much more... >> rose: and going back and forth and getting access and confirmation. >> that's right. we've seen al qaeda interested in getting out of the tribal areas if at all possible. >> rose: how good have they been-- obviously not good enough in osama bin laden's case-- in terms of being able to shut down on cell phone usage, to be able to do things that will, in a sense, make them more immune to attack? >> rose: well in one of the last chapters i talked briefly about a note from al-zawahiri to bin laden not long before the... bin laden's fay almay attack where same al-zawahiri is saying "we have to have better security procedures, the drone strikes are killing us." so i

first let me ask you about pakistan. the senate foreign relations committee today voted to hold up $33 million from pakistan out of anger in really fury over the fact that pakistan has jailed the doctor who helped us find bin laden. jailed him for treason for 33 years. that's $1 million a year. what is your reaction to this? because pakistan is at the same time, many say, extorting us on the cost for re-opening those supply routes to get in and out of afghanistan. critically important supply routes. >> well, andrea, i think you're asking me about pakistan and a vote that the appropriations subcommittee took about our aid program to pakistan. we have a very important but very conflicted relationship with pakistan. obviously they're closing off supply routes to our soldiers while they're in the field fighting for freedom. afghanistan is an enormous source of frustration. it's in part in response to an incident the pakistanis took great offense to. we need to find ways we can sustain this critical relationship, for the troo

there is no doubt there have been tensions between isaf and pakistan, the united states and pakistan.> progress may not be free of blood shed. the warm and not really end. only the fighting will be done by afghan forces. they want to assure them that when they stand up, they will not stand alone. >> we're making an enduring commitment to the long-term future of afghanistan. the message to the afghan people is we will not desert them. the message to the insurgency is equally clear. you cannot win on the battlefield. he should stop fighting and start talking. >> the summit is intended to mark a milestone. the journey is far from over. nato is planning in a supporting role in afghanistan even as it prepares to clear the war is over. bbc news in chicago. >> for more on the strategy emerging from the summit, i am joined by prof. of international politics and former adviser in the u.s. state department. they are not short of optimism. at the end of the day, leaving afghanistan does not mean the end of the war. will the afghan forces really be able to cope? >> i do not think so, largely beca

america was in pakistan, but even in pakistan it wasn't there with troops. it was there with people who were giving advice and money to the pakistanis. so the issues in '89 and '90 turned basically were lapsed back into what are our relations with pakistan? and islamic fundamentalism is not really coming on the radar as a key issue except with respect to what's happening with pakistan and trends in pakistani politics, and very quickly in pakistan, the dominant issue will soon become pakistani nuclear and war and pakistani proliferation efforts that will end up resulting in a series of sanctions in which the united states options were constrained but were not the subject of grand strategy. one more issue though, and where i'll leave this, because it's an interesting subject, and bob will remember this better. in that tumultuous month of may 1990, that tim naftali so helpfully i think spotlighted, there was one other huge issue going on in may 1990, first class nuclear crisis between india and pakistan. bob gates wasn't around for a chunk of that month in may

to resolution connected to the soviet union the mujahideen organizations backed by the west and pakistan and the arab world the. secular elements of afghanistan the clergy those who fought one of the during different wars are now all sitting side by side in the parliament in afghanistan and they almost have the same neighboring neighboring seats there so that's not the problem afghanistan is a united country and a very united country and the opposition to my government. accuses my government of not of not being patriotic enough. to defend discussion and some of them are from the north some of them are from the south some of them are from the west within the government the same the same rhetoric goes towards the opposition as they're not being patriotic enough so no that's the least of our concerns and for the fortunately to the rescue of the fact is the afghan army and police. on the basis of the northern alliance there are only ten percent of pushtuns so rank in your national army i know it for sure and the groups or so called want to he didn't get yet they consist most of. about eighty

in neighboring pakistan. week the defense department reported that pakistan remains "a safe haven," for militants. bin laden was living with his family near pakistan's version of west point we are told before forces killed him there, some american lawmakers accused pakistani army of playing both sides. both with al qaeda. and the united states. which all of the evidence indicates is exactly what they were doing. and, now we are learning that pakistanis have not answered one tough question: did their security forces protect the world's most wanted terrorist? keep in mind the united states has given to pakistan, listen now, we have given to pakistan $22 billion in united states taxpayer money over the past decade. $22 billion. to pakistan. and now, like from the site of the former home in pakistan. dominic? >>reporter: some elements of pakistan's spy agency former element of pakistani spy agency must have been part of the support network. that is the key conclusion from what will onlien or ever be the most inde

they all want out of pakistan. they want to do it cheaply and they all actually share a lot of concerns about the energy issues around the world on iran, they share a lot of concerns around china and cybersecurity. what we will increasingly see is a world of the coalitions of the willing both in terms of energy, economics, trade, climate and on security issues. and nato is not a global institution. it's an institution where the countries that are members all actually share fundamental views of how security should be provided around the world. it doesn't mean they all want to pay for it, it doesn't mean they want to do a lot of lift,ing, but this is not a irrelevant institution, it just needs to be updated to reflect the chal challenges today. >> which goes to your initiative of every country for themselves, and then it goes to globalized interests around issues of security climate, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. >> and nato has that alignment. >> and nato has that alignment. the president is expected at the podiu

is pakistan. we just don't want to see the facts about pakistan for a variety of reasons that i don't want to go into that, including the fact that we basically made ourselves a hostage of pakistan because of our own afghan policy. if you have only one route and the other route has to come from pakistan or the russian kurdish, obviously pakistan is going to do whatever you want to do. i'm sorry to do. the other thing we don't understand about the movement

let's talk about pakistan. every time the u.s. has turned up the heat on militants in afghanistan they've gone next door according to the intelligence reports that had been described to me. >> guest: i would put it differently. i would say one thing that is consistent over the past several years, frankly the last decade is the command and control structure for the insurgency has been and is and will be for the foreseeable future in pakistan so there has been targeting of some of the insurgent groups in pakistan. the haqqani network which is based in the tribal and rigorous and the al qaeda elements and a few others in the tribal areas of pakistan but the most important by far is the senior taliban. all those other groups said in baluchistan province near southern afghanistan, and there have been no sustained u.s. operations against the taliban leadership in baluchistan. >> host: we are not allowed to go there. the pakistanis also again and again u.s. officials speak of the pakistani intelligence service supports the taliban and th

like to stress to my guess is that pakistan and afghanistan they are they aren't going anywhere then you know yes and you don't choose your neighbors they're just there what kind of relationship do you want to have just like russia is a neighbor if. you're going to show us the best of relations with them who this is a this is a fundamentally. important question. afghanistan will have to live with the staplers long long after the united states in nato yes. it we are very aware of this we recognize it in the depth of our hearts in this why we are trying our best with our neighbors look at our relations with iran in spite of all the odds of you kept at the best in spite of all the odds we've paid a heavy price to give poor relation to business with iran in spite of all the difficulties all the terrorist attacks in afghanistan all the sanctuaries all the problems in parks all the the attackers that come from across the border into afghanistan we have kept a very strong dialogue with pakistan we have a life we have kept for a very strong effort with pakistan to to have struggle a ship and

pakistan by no means a nato member, but the president of pakistan sis at the summit and e did meet briefly with our president today. president obama refuses to hold formal bilateral meetings with him until there is a deal made to manage those supply routes through pakistan into afghanistan. the "new york times" says the problem is how much pakistan wants to charge us, you and me, for safe passage of these nato supplies through pakistan into afghanistan. whaelts t what's the fee, is the question. nato used to pay, this is a conventional bribe, $250 per truck back in the day. but we've printed money and all these things, and now pakistan says they want upward of $5,000 per truck in the bribe to bring our belongings into their country where they can steal it from us. so the question really becomes how much do we want to pay -- anyway, we'll get into it with our guests. most of the cash ends up in insurgent hands, the enemies, those that we're fighting. the money for those trucks is being paid, believe it or not, to finance the taliban as a bribe for them not to shoot at us as we go through th

just waiting it out in pakistan? now, let's talk about pakistan. every time u.s.turned up the heat on militants in afghanistan, they've gone next door, according to the intelligence reports that have been described to me. >> guest: actually, i'd put it a little differently. one thing that's been consistent over the past several years, frankly, the past decade, is that the command and control structure for the insurgency has been and is and will be for the foreseeable future in afghanistan. there is some targeting of some of the up -- insurgent groups in afghanistan. the haqqani group in the pakistan areas and others in the tribal areas of pakistan, but the most important stir up in my view 1 the senioral jsh senior taliban. others have representation in the province near southern afghanistan, and there have been no sustained u.s. operations against the taliban leadership -- >> host: we're not allowed to go there. >> guest: or the pakistanis. >> host: and the pakistanis also, again and again, u.s. officials talk about how the pakistani intelligence service supports

there's no doubt that there have been tensions when isaf and pakistan, the united states and pakistanr the last several months. i think they are being worked through both military and diplomatic channels. but ultimately, it is in our interest to see a successful stable pakistan and it is in pakistan's interests to work with us and the world community to ensure that they themselves are not consumed by extremism that is in their midst. so we're going to keep on going at this and i think every nato member, every isaf member is committed to that. >> yesterday your friend and ally said that -- alleged that romney at bain capital was, quote, responsible for job losses at a kansas city steel mill. is that your view that romney is personal responsible for those job losses, will comments from booker and your former auto czar ken ratner call on you to pull back a little bit? and generally, can you give us your sense -- three-part, mr. president. could you give us your sense of just what private equity's role is stemming job losses as they seek a return on investment for their investors? >> firs

pakistan has been bad since osama bin laden was found hiding in pakistan. then there was an incident when the u.s. troops killed 24 pakistanis and the pakistanis closed the border. we've learned that very soon, tomorrow, the next day, pakistan is going to announce that it will reopen its border to allow two-way traffic, supplies to go into afghanistan and supplies and troops to leave. so it will become a two-way highway, a very, very important supply route. because for the last six months, helicopters, planes have been plying out vehicles. think about trying to empty a lake with a spoon. how long it takes, how expensive it is, and all of the other people we've had to pay kickbacks to and things like that. but it comes with a big price. >> literally, a big price. >> literally a big price. >> they're charging us to do this. >> $1 million a day. so that's roughly the figure that pakistan is going to ask for, for use of its roads. >> do we know -- >> and there's more. there's another $1 billion i'll get to in a second. >> do we know enough about the comparative

well pakistan has been doing this all along i think we've been we've given pakistan something like seven billion dollars a lot this is the numbers i checked when i was doing research for my book you know some like seven million dollars over the past eight years maybe it's even more than that all the while they're hiding you know osama bin laden and i bought a body and other major al-qaeda leaders they're protecting the taliban leadership in quetta which is a large city in pakistan while they're while they're taking our money that we're and i should say taking i mean we're giving it to them you know so so it is very peculiar it's so i think you know the calculation was made in this case that you know that they shut down the supply lines occasionally they made their point and if we're going to keep keep them open then there's going to be a price to that i mean it's it's kind of typical kind of gangster mafia sort of business that we're in we're playing right into it wants to play become somewhat of a trend i think it's a in the relationship between pakistan and the u.s. and to that right b

pakistan, though, those discussions in pakistan were not just about afghanistan. we had certified pakistan positively in the fall of 1989. jim baker told me, he said i'm not going to do that again unless we get some movement on their part. we made that very clear to them, they didn't, and as phil said they were sanctioned the next year. that was still at the time that a senior person couldn't fly just to pakistan. if you went to pakistan you had to go to india. so every time i was out there i would be in both places. we were trying to get them, particularly the military to military side, to sort of build up their confidence building measures, and they had a hotline, they used to talk frequently. it flared to something that could have been quite a bit more serious and when it turned that serious on the eastern border, we didn't have quite the high level intense look at their republican border to our regret later. >> you're right about not seeing the future, although as you know it's through a glass darkly. but in terms of counter terrorism that was a successful per

are they just waiting it out in pakistan in now, let's talk about pakistan. every time the u.s.has turned up the heat on militants in afghanistan, they've gone next door according to the intelligence reports that have been described to me. >> guest: actually, i would put it a little differently. i would way one thing that's been consistent for the past couple of decades has and will be for the foreseeable future in pakistan. they're targeting some of the insurgent groups in pakistan. the haqqani network which is based in the tribal areas and the al-qaeda elements and a few others that sit in the tribal area of pakistan. but the most important shura, in my view, by far is the senior taliban shura. all those other groups have representation, that sits in baa balochistan province near southern afghanistan. and there have been no sustained u.s. operations against the taliban leadership in balochistan or -- >> host: yeah, we're not allowed to go there. >> guest: or, neither are the pakistanis. >> host: and the pakistanis also again and again u.s. officials speak of how the pakistani