well the money behind these parties like 7 a 2 party system where they bet on both parties no matter who wins they have friends in high places so i think that's the dynamic here you have a 2 party system both of which are funded by the wealthy special interests so they get the audi tension we have debates sponsored by what's called the commission on presidential debates which sounds like a government agency in fact as a private corporation the 2 parties control. i don't think that's right it's not the way to really open up the political system is a good proportional representation you can use rank choice voting for multi-member districts to do that there's actually legislation in congress and that's something else we need bush. and was there is a lot of white hudson criticism voting for a party actually can create problems more problems and build and just wason the division because that essentially is stealing quote you know folks from parties that would actually when for example the republicans or the democrats in this particular case why it is so close in those states that was sayi

party, the normalcy part of the anti trump party. and the thing is, once they're in that position, there are going to be people that they're going to need to answer to their own base is going to say, well, what about ending the war on drugs? what about ending these foreign wars are you can actually do anything about it, and when they predictably don't do anything about it, there's going to be a quite a reckoning. and nick, i'm so glad there are been said that i think any politician, they says i'm a status quo politician. is going to be destroying ok because it's the last thing people want is this that, oh, i mean, these political establishment, they are so my olympic make this, they have no idea what's going on in the country here. and nick, as much as you and i disagree on many issues, i have to agreement you to like health care that this is the rhetorical trick that everybody blames. you know, it's called socialism or single payer or actually you whole g.o.p. voters. a lot of them would like to have a lot better health care. ok. an

then the free soil party. anti-slavery, and then the democrats and whoever was opposed the democrats had northern and southern wings. so you would basically have this divisions between party and then over slavery, and, you know that is inherently an unstable mix in a majority voting. and in both of these cases the house eventually decided to select their speaker through plurality vote. only time in history. that's the only way they could get out of the conundrum. and in '36, now coming into the civil war, pennington from new jersey gets elected. here it's actually kind of interesting. i mean, it's very, very different and much more, actually much more easy to understand. by '36, slavery was -- '36 congress, slavery was basically the issue and everyone was along a continuum about how strongly you felt about slavery with democrats basically a pro-slavery party by then. republicans, opposition party a dog stew of other parties not democrats are raid against slavery. and here the issue ended up being that a group

the: you talked about parties. your new book is about the two-party system. quickly, why do you think the country would be served by having more parties rather than what we have now, essentially two ruling parties. guest: if you look at what's been going on, this hyper partisanship. you can look at it in terms of this election issue which we've been discussing. when you have two parties competing for narrow majorities. do tolittle thing you can rig the vote in your favor becomes that much more important. and then once the other side starts doing it, you feel justified in doing it. that escalating hyper partisan warfare and it's been going on , including of areas elections. it's destroying our faith in democracy. it's become red versus blue america. when you think that half of the country is evil or dangerous because they support different party -- they support a different party, that creates a sense we just can't come together and solve the problems we need to solve. is anarty democracy alternative vision in which there are numerous parties and the coalitions

there are two parties. the whig party and the democratic party. the whig party breaks apart into the northern and southern parts. but it breaks apart into more parts. and a lot of whigs in the north in the border states join another party. in a movement called the know nothing party or the american party. this is an anti-immigrant nativist party. this party is a reaction to the great wave of immigration of the irish and germans. they come for different reasons. the irish come because of the potato famine and the germans come because of the failed liberal revolutions of 1848. the germans are liberals they , are politically liberal. they come into the united states and the know nothing party has a platform. the platform is one plank. the plank is only nativeborn protestants, protestants, should hold public office in the united states. no catholics. and you have to be nativeborn. so it excluded all the immigrants from ever running for office in the united states. >> lincoln was pro-immigrant. dip --oln low the loathed nativism and the know nothings b

not to the democratic party just. well and that's that that's absolutely correct and you know again look at as it really played screw the democratic party for my perspective joe biden should have run when hillary clinton rat i mean it's simply too late at this point in my view and so biden runs then he gets how will i have risk to back a mother and the whole thing is just a side show and from the perspective of strong i don't see him as a strong decisive leader i simply don't see that what i do see is the democratic party frailing all over the place it's like oh it cme that and all of this discussion for example the progressives and i get all of this kind of something psychologists you know what about the person who has to go to work every day it seems like you're forgotten about that person and i think that's a major part of what we have here and i think now that we find ourselves so close it chris or you're absolutely right and who would have thought that that the default position for somebody else people would be d

party became a centrist party. and the 2 sides began to change their, their sort of demographic position. and degree of college education, someone had, did not use to tell you which party they supported. and increasingly, it does. college educated americans are voting democratic. people who only have a high school education are voting more republican. this is the overhanging issue, trump ism is and will be gone with donald trump. trump ism is not going to disappear. the pseudo populism that he used to get elected. he didn't make that up . republicans have been doing that for a long time. he swiped his themes from richard nixon and ronald reagan, openly make america great. again, that's from regen, the whole strategy of reaching out to the angry white working class that's from nixon. the problem republicans have been doing this forever. this is not him. typically, what happens in american politics is when a party loses, they go through a sort of self reflective period and what do we need to change in order to win th

they did. 47 to 52 ended up being the republican party in the democrat party. in which the parties were divided in three, four, five, seven way contests. there was a question, people were so ticked off at the end of these contests, that there was a question about whether the losers would come and vote for the winner on the floor, and they didn't vote. this was the biggest test, a stress dust up until 1891. so that's a stress test. so really, the last time the whole system pull apart was in 1923. and just to give you a really quick overview, because i've got five more minutes of me talking and then questions. 1923 you will recognize as being a period in which the republican party was divided between stalwarts, and they weren't called that by, then put the conservatives which was the largest group of the party, the progressives. and the republicans had taken ups lacking, and so the progressive ended up being, they were about 24 of them. there was only a 14 vote majority for the republicans. they wanted the leadership of the republican party to be more open and de

i quit your party because your party has nothing to offer me. and i only care about me like donald trump cares about him.art now the reason he's not admitted to the president-elect that he won the election is because he r wants to hold onto something he ain't got. he stole the apprentice from mark bethea and he's done no good for people in the buildingo -- his buildings in atlantic city.time for >> okay, john. i'm going to join in. do you think it's time for president trump to concede this race? >> oh, certainly. i think it is nonsensical, and you know, one of the things i've learned over my years, with thil president, you have to demonstrate why he should do something because it's in his own best interest, and he's not terribly interested in helping . the party or anyone else. i think what he should he canis appreciate is he's hurting his s own legacy by doing this. and he's hurting the potential to hold the senate majority which i think would hurt his legacy by doing this. there's absolutely no basis for this. his time is running out and you'l

he did not bring the party together. trump has brought the party together. right, let the democratic party go to the left and let's make the deal and meet in the middle. you people have let us down a bad road -- let us down about road for 30 years. i'm tired of centrists. ?ost: is that what happened when republicans held the majority in the house, when you were there serving speaker paul ryan, is that the strategy and did it work? guest: that caller is a great example of the state of our politics. there is very little center. i would argue that there's very little dealmaking going on. we are very divided and both parties have largely taken the approach that you stick with each other and bring out your base and fire up your run voters and that the path ahead. volatile type of politics. but i would disagree little bit, does not lead to a lot of deals being made. what ends up happening is you have a breakdown in the legislative process because there's no compromise at any stage. you have to govern by crisis. i mean government funding aadlines, the fiscal cliff

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that actually have members i mean what we have now are 2 major parties you tell the state which party you're in in order to vote in their primaries. there's no local organization no local chapter that already know you don't agree to a set of principles and to sort of join you just tell the state which party you are so the electorate is out of miers and disconnected from the political process. ok let's have a recap then on how things are looking right now in the presidential race joe biden currently has 264 electors donald trump there trails with 214 the 1st to 270 planes the prize now winning just one more state like nevada would victory to biden while trump in order to turn the tide would have to take all the remaining battleground states some like north carolina and pennsylvania aren't due to declare for some time. now another news today england and greece are returning to lock downs in a bid to put a stop to surging cases england is reimposing restrictions following the examples of france and germany in order to slow down the spread of the virus france has more than 40000 new cases

by one party and the other party is excluded. that is a democracy.t is the way democracies work. you come together. you listen to each other. you respect each other. you debate out your differences. you settle them. you compromise. and you move the country ahead for the good ethic country. steve: you are well known as a former policy realist. for those who want a quick dose of what realism means, it means you see the world as it is, another world you would like it to be. as you see other foreign leaders looking at our leadership right now, both in donald trump and this change to joe biden in the white house, from a realist perspective,? ? what are they seeing do they see the united states as a pushover? ? do they see the united states as in strategic construction and not going to matter as much? i'm interested -- how do you think they see us? sec. hagel: well, i think the last four years, and i've talked to many ambassadors, foreign ministers, defense ministers, prime ministers, so this is not just my opinion. this is in talking with a lot of people.

rather than for their own party. so i think if we can change the electoral system in place the electoral college with a national popular vote using right choice voting for presidential elections i think the greens will move way up and in the boat we get currently the state in the us is kind of how how it harkens mentioned it's people for trump and people who hate trump that's what they're voting about and they're there strategically choosing one of the major parties it's not that they necessarily agree with the platforms of those parties and was that there is a lot of wide hods of criticism saying for a party actually can create problems more problems and build and just wason the device and because that essentially stealing quote you know votes from parties that would actually when for example the republicans or the democrats in this particular case why it is so close and those states that were saying you know sometimes even less than a percentage point how would you react to people who say that if i had to choose we

heand his rallies were taking over the party before the party knew what was going on . >> one of the things that among so many that just bowled me over at the rallies was the way in which trump first of all wherever he is, like if he was in dallas, there would be 10 crews would be there. rick perry would be there. that tech process secretary of state and the whole gop texas delegation and then down ballot people would be there. it doesn't matter whether it was kentucky, mississippi, whatever and he would first of all, i was surprised those people would be there and so many of them and then he would take those people in the middle of his speech, he would pause and he would introduce them. and he would introduce them by telling a story, always a story about them and about how he beat them. like ted cruz, how ted cruz was the debate champion of princeton and harvard. and he, donald was just this working-class guy from queens . never been on a debate. he played baseball, he said and yet then he debated ted cruz and crushed him. i mean he humiliated them and in saying he's humiliating him

that will be very damaging for the republican party. a divided party never does well.at we are seeing at the moment is the republican party establishment humoring donald trump all the way out of the white house. and i think they will then make sure that whatever happens, he is not the nominee in 2024. >> doris kearns goodwin, has any individual ever dominated their party to the extent that trump seems to now? one thinks of t.r. who went out on his own. roosevelt, who in his fourth nomination didn't even attend the convention. >> well, what's different today, obviously, is the media and the access to the media and the oxygen that it gives him with the continual tweets by trump. you know, when he is out of power and that oxygen isn't there day by day, i think there will be a diminution of the power he holds over the other people in the party. the real question to me is you are going to have a lot of individual republican legislators in this next section of congress. are they going to feel the responsibility to do something about this crisis to put people back to work, to

not democrat party it's the democratic party i wouldn't call the republican party that republican party so i think we want to talk about tamping down some of the rhetoric we should also be respectful with respect to to the party the democratic party has always been diverse it is extraordinarily diverse even in this election cycle we saw that diversity unexplained display again so of course there are going to be parts of the party that don't always agree with each other that happens in both parties so i want to just point that out but it's a party that's the 1st racially it's a party that the various religiously sexual orientation gender all of those things and that's to me what makes the party great because that's reflective of america at the same time in terms of the rhetoric that that trump is offered about god's earth and that's and that you know rhetoric is one thing actions are another thing and in our country if the back suffering we had 200 we had 240000 people who are dead because of a pandemic that's raging and so it's it's one thing to say certain things but it's another thing

there's 45 driving parties an opposition we have 2 parties that are pretty well in line with wall street with big pharmaceutical companies with the military industrial complex and they divide their day or separate on a couple issues so we really need an opposition party to get us out a great he more choice or i want to thank spencer and graham we want to thank our viewers for watching us here are easy next time remember. when else sure seemed wrong all right i'll roll just don't call me i'll get to see how it does that kind of attitude and james right because the trail. when something is find themselves worlds apart. just of the common ground. join me every thursday on the alec simon show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then. is you'll be a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe. isolation community. are you going the right way or are you being led so. tightly. what is true what's his face. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. for a mate in the shallo

that actually have members i mean what we have now are 2 major parties you tell the state which party you're in in order to vote in primaries there's no local organization no local chapter of the party no you don't agree to a set of principles and they do sort of party to join you just tell the state which party you're in so the electorate is adam honest and disconnected from the political process. well pennsylvania is still counting votes on could prove the deciding factor one of the 16. long run democrat wins altie is 20 charges has more on why the state swings between the 2 parties. pennsylvania with nearly 13000000 residents is arguably the single most important stage of the 2020 election but in many ways the keystone state mirrors the country while it's rust belt is dotted with a shuttered factories and run down chimneys it's also a place of affluent liberal suburbs and conservative countryside reflecting a divided america i mean the devices in this sense going on in this country right now it's ridiculous and i don't care what anybody says that it is a race. and very lucky that s

that actually have members i mean what we have now are 2 major parties you tell the state which party you're in in order to vote in primaries there's no local organization no local chapter of the party no you don't agree to a set of principles and they do sort of party to join you just tell the state which party you're in so the electorate is adam honest and disconnected from the political process. with the ballot counting extremely tight less update you know and how it looks at this point democrat joe biden has the backing of 264 electors one his rival donald trump has 240 hold for winning the race is 217 votes now winning just one more state like nevada could mean victory for biden who is reportedly only 6 votes from his goal the state will continue counting in the morning while trying in order to turn the tide would have to take all uncounted battleground states some like north carolina and pennsylvania will not announce until late. i am. i am. turning to other world news now major members are returning to lockdowns following a record surge in covert cases with in some instances a

certainly to the left of the party were gearing up the left of the party were gearing upfora campaignring up for a campaign to try and get jeremy corbyn reinstated. i think discussions were held behind the scenes before a disciplinary party ruling met this afternoon. certainly possible that they could have reached a different conclusion. some people are even on the left of the party have been pressing for him to apologise for his earlier comments. he didn't do that but he did do is issue a clarification. that clarification went along these lines, initially had said that the problem had been dramatically overstated by political opponents. it was that phrase which got him suspended from the labour party. sir keir starmer the current leader suggested that those that said the problem was exaggerated was part of the problem itself he supported that the problem itself he supported that the clarification said that concerns about anti—semitism were it not exaggerated. they were not overstated and mr corbin said he wasn't try to belittle those concerns. so he simply explained that he believed

years earlier ronald reagan tried to take the nomination away from gerald florida in the republican party and the probabl country dd he's too conservative, that is too far out there, but in 1980 ronald reagan hadn't moved but the country was ready for, as much to do with carter's failure as reagan success, there you have it. what really happened in 1980 that i did not appreciate until he did the book was ronald reagan took a basic core message that he had developed for years and expanded and flushed it out. how does that happen, first of all his economic philosophy became a little clear because he took supplies from economics from jack kemp and said i'm not for balancing the budget, and for a big tax cut that will spur the economy, yet a conservative message that had a little more own to it, and then he reunited with religious conservatives, that did not happen that was a revolution the idea that people in them angelical movement would get out of the churches into the political movement, that had not happened before certainly on the scale and ronald reagan went to them and they came to ro

well this truly was the year to have a 3rd party win but there were no parties strong enough out there with any candidates to create any type of excitement because the reason was you had negatives on both sides that were so high you had people saying well i'm voting against trump or i you know i don't want that old sleepy joe biden. but the point was the 3rd party movement had no one to offer them anything and there's a growing sing out there that's happening right now called the people's party and it's starting to rise up and it's getting celebrities like susan saran bed and people of notoriety that are politically motivated like that are looking for a 3rd party because what you saw this year truly was picking the lesser of 2 evils john i want to get your take on the 3rd parties and even this 2 in a vat of as we are waiting for the results to come in it was really interesting if you take a look at the breakdown the essentially none of the above has got like 10000 votes in the state of nevada right now i should judge and i know just as you talked about this quite a bit but i want to as

he is just as quick to criticize members of his own party as members of the other party. as it turns out, that kind of equal opportunity straight talk maryland.pular in governor hogan has ranked as one of the most popular governors in america, usually in the top two. recently, number one. yeararyland poll this gave him a 75% approval rating in a state that just voted for joe biden almost two-to-one. these are numbers most politicians dream of. it's not like governor hogan has had an easy go of it. he's led through tough times, from the death of freddie gray to polarizing issues in the state legislature to the covid-19 pandemic. the people of maryland have come to rely on his steady stewardship. at the same time, he's faced extraordinary personal challenges, fighting and defeating cancer during his first term. it's been five years since he's been given a clean bill of health. standingy, he is still , which of course is a very fitting title of his recent memoir. there are a lot of great stories in this book, from political life to legislative -- the personal anecdotes can b

the republican party still needs to be the party of the social conservative.it doesn't deliver victories. it talks a good game and then rolled over on different things. think about the enormous social change we've seen over the last five years against which republican party claims to be standing by to guess which is also entirely ineffective. it needs to stand up, not, i accuse republican party of being cynicism that talks a good game to get votes and boost donations but knows it can't take on the power of the media and the administrative state and the judiciary so it asks for your money cynically. >> on that it's less than disagreement a more follow-through. as political will. not just will, but get rid of the citizen. we need people who are not just talking good game because if you have to but believe it and going to fight for it. on economics, i think it would have to be the biggest change in the republican party will have to be, it's not 1980 anymore. the top marginal tax rate is that 70% of famously reagan's first inaugural visit in this present crisis is

that actually have members i mean what we have now are 2 major parties you tell the state which party you're in in order to vote in primaries there's no local organization no local chapter of the party no you don't agree to a set of principles and they do sort of party to join you just tell the state which party human so the electorate is adam honest and disconnected from the political process. with the ballots counting extremely tight let's take a look now at how it stands democrat joe biden has the backing of 264 electors while his rival donald trump has 214 now the threshold as you know for winning the race is 270 votes and to have a crosses that line 1st will gain at the presidency but one thing we can already say for sure is that the 2020 vote has been marred by allegations of an electoral fraud and error as the trunk campaign has filed lawsuits in 3 states pennsylvania michigan and georgia demanding that absentee ballots which arrived after the election day deadline should not be included i mean one of the state of north carolina ballot counting will take up to 8 more days that'

both parties have deep internal divisions and the corporate is in both parties based populist challenges. is this the perfect recipe for a political realignment to discuss this and more, i'm joined by my guest, kevin chavez, in washington. and he is an attorney and democratic strategist, and minneapolis we have and lazaro he is founder of big tent republicans. and in austin, we crossed the west. benedict is a former executive director of the libertarian party, originally, rules in effect, that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i was appreciated. he was going to kevin kevin, in light of the election results, which you say that the, the me mainly the postulant politics. this destiny is in the dustbin of history. go ahead. well, we'll see what happens over. so don't have an official weather. of course. if you have to leave it to the president, and i don't like to remind us, even though we know who you are, we have a lot of work to do honestly in america to get this use of our service is how divided really are were president choppers, got the folks out, but he created almost a stro

party is excluded. so that's a democracy. that's the way democracies work. you come together, you listen, each other struck each other. you debate out your differences, you subtler you compromise and you move, you move the country ahead for the good country. you know, you're well no as a foreign policy realist. and for those who want to quick dose of what real is a means, that means you see the world as it is not the world you'd like it to be. you know, as you see, other foreign leaders looking at our leadership right now, both in donald trump and this change to joe biden. in the white house, from a realist perspective, what are they seeing? do they see the united states as a pushover? do they see the united states as in strategic contraction and not going to matter as much i'm interested in and this is your world. how do, how do you think they see us? well, i think the last 4 years, and i've talked to many, many ambassadors, foreign ministers, defense ministers, prime ministers. and so this is not just

both parties have deep internal divisions, and the court is in both parties based populist challenges. is this the perfect recipe for a political realignment to discuss this and more, i'm joined by my guest, kevin chatters in washington, and he is an attorney and democratic strategist, and minneapolis we have and tom lazaro, he is founder of big 10 republicans. and in austin, we cross the west. benedict is a former executive director of the libertarian party, originally, rules in effect, that means you can jump in anytime you want, and i was appreciate it. he was going to kevin kevin, in light of the election results, which you say that the, the, me, the postulate politics is, destiny is in the dustbin of history. go ahead. we'll see what happens over. so i don't have an official where of course i am a leader to the president and i don't like to remind us even though we know who are rude, i think we have a lot of work to do honestly in america to get past this huge divide i think elections showed us how divided really are, were present shop reform, got the folks out. but unfortunately

he's been quick to criticize members of his own party as those of the other party. that kind of equal opportunity straight talk is very popular in maryland. throughout his tenure, governor hogan has ranked one of the most popular governors in america, usually in the top two. he reminded me before hand, recently number one. and one poll gave him a 75% approval rating. in a state that just voted for joe biden almost 2-1. these are numbers most politicians dream of. and it's not like governor hogan hasn't had an easy go of it. he led through the death of freddie gray, to polarizing issues in the state legislature, to the covid-19 pandemic. the people of maryland have come to rely on his steady stewardship. at the same time, he's faced extraordinary personal challenge, fighting and defeating cancer during his first term. today i believe is the anniversary, five years since he's been given a clean bill of health. yet, here today, he's still standing which, of course, is the very fitting title of his recent memoir. now, there are a lot of great stories in this book from p

thoughtful party? well, obviously i can't speak for my former colleagues or anybody in office now, but for me, steve, answer your question. i always had a northstar didn't mean i was always right or i had the right answer, but i had a northstar. i knew why i was there and i used to say, and you heard me say it and i said in the form of a cite and speeches when i was being i was being ridiculed by some of my republican colleagues as a rhino republican name on and i was, i was disloyal to the republican party. i used to say, we take an oath of office to the constitution. we don't take an oath of office to a political party or a president or anybody else, just the constitution. and as long as you have that privilege of serving this country and some capacity in elective office, your focus, your northstar should be what you think is the right thing to do for your country. obviously who you represent your state. but for your country. and i never got confused about that again. didn't mean i was any better tha

potential changes for the democratic party or in other parties?eople who run, the former president this, we can do it. caller: that's the possibility. once you destroy the norm, right? once you break it, than anybody can, yeah, you could have democrats who are, how would you say it, less morally proper? they could say well, look at trump. he kept all his properties. he visited his properties. why can't i do that? you know what i'm saying? you are going down a path that i think of as authoritarianism. there's probably a better word for it. host: another view from michigan, republican and independent, jack, go ahead. caller: good morning. thanks, c-span, for taking my call. i got a couple of comments i want to make. host: do us a favor, hit the mute button on the volume and go ahead with your comments. caller: let me get my tv turned down completely. calling, what i was calling about, i personally think the election was ruined, like trump is saying. that part don't make any matter. i don't know if biden got 80 million votes, they are saying, but any

it is been just as quick to criticize members of his own party a those of the other party. and as it turns out, the kind of equal opportunity talk, is very popular maryland. throughout his tenure governor hogan has ranked for the most popular governors in america. usually the top two. recent number one. in one maryland publisher, gave him5 percent approval rating. an estate the voted for joe biden almost two - 21. even numbers most politicians dream of. and so i keep have an easy g of it. he has led from hard times. the people of maryland have come through on a steady stewardship. but same time, he's got extraordinary peonal challenges fighting and defeatingancer during his first term. which i vaguely is an anniversary five years since he been given a clean bill of health and yet here, here today he is stilltanding rated of course is a very fitting title of this present memoir . is live great stories in this book. from . fullike to legislative price . personal anecdotes can really be the best. like the story of his first launch of the future first lady. were they shared aea