pat buscovich, structural engineer who is one of the people who has seen more failed retaining walls in san francisco than anybody else. and he owns a few actually. and jim mccormick from the mr. -- planning department. he's been here 20, over 20 years. jim mccormick runs the planning information counter on the first floor at 1660 mission street. the signing information counter, by the way, is one of your primary sources for information in the city regarding what you can do, where you can do it, how you can do it. and if you want to reach the planning information counter, what do you do? you call, right? >> call. >> what is the phone number? 558-63 77. the pic, planning information counter. jim mccormick. today's talk is fences and retaining walls. and one of the things i found most interesting is to show slides and talk about what we see in the slides as a way to trigger comments from our guests and your comments and questions as well. i think we have -- i have slides that i'm going to show you, basically three or four different pieces. the first piece is fences along the street. th

pat buscovich is a structural engineer, the technical side of the table. >> at this end of the table.>> that end of the table. he's worked on more unreenforced building in san francisco than anyone else and formally on the stat name. thanks for coming, pat. so public policy issues. i was reading last week this really interesting article that i cut out of earthquake spectra and it is by richard selsi and mary (inaudible). ice individual's perceptions of earthquake risks. it says, that people -- all results indicate that individuals tend to Ñi per septually underestimate. earthquake events are generally overestimated relative to experienced magazine any -- mag tiewdz. you have a benchmark you can tie it to. >> lorie, do you think people underestimate the risk for earth quaiks? >> absolutely. it's interesting having been raised in a place like texas wherever year you're thinking about or -- tornado hazards and where you should go inside your howtion. there's a reminder every year and there's a tornado touch down somewhere. it's very difficult with earthquakes. very few families actually