and van said what needs to be said about pat nolan and that is that pat was in this space virtually beforetion conference, we had a pam on criminal justice reform and one of the panelists was burny carrick of new york. and jenny said well that is the way to do. just take one of these guys and lock them up for a few months so they get a look at things on the other side and they came out changed and i thought there are a lot of people that ought to be locked up for that reason. but people get locked up for all kinds of reasons and get abused and mistreated by the criminal justice system. pat was the republican leader in california in the assembly a few years ago and did get roped in by the criminal justice system and learned what it was all about. and when he had an opportunity, he came out here to work with chuck holson and do something about a system that didn't work. one of the problems that we face is the public doesn't care about this, because once you are locked up you are not part of the human community they don't care or pay attention to how you are treated or worry about what happen