and joining me now-- patricia mcguire, president of trinity washington university. and from rome, where he's covering this event, john allen is associate editor for the "boston globe." john, welcome back. starting with you. two very different popes known for two very different things. clearly, some zig in putting them -- significance in putting them together in this canonization, right? >> absolutely. one thing you dare never forget about pope francis is beneath the lummable exterior which is real is the mind of an extraordinarily crafty jesuit politician. this is a pope that is very sensitive to the politics he does and i think he is aware that, in the catholic street, pope john xxiii, the father of the second vatican council which launched the church on a course of reform, is a hero to the catholic left, whereas pope john paul ii who battled communism and what he described as a culture of death behind liberalizing currents on abortion and other issues, he is a hero to the catholic right. i think francis worried if either one were canonized individually that that c