i mean, patti -- dick mel was very strong family man. he had three children and a lovely wife, very strong family. and when patti met rod initially dick mel was very pleased and thought this was going to be a terrific match. he was -- he was all for it. his wife on the other hand was somewhat concerned about rod blagojevich from the very beginning, she just didn't trust him. and she, you know, was not sure -- he had her daughter's best interest at heart. which turned out sadly to be the case. she wound up with this horrible brain disease and died about five years ago now. so you had dick mel who at one point had a son-in-law who was the governor of illinois, lovely wife, great kids, suddenly, his wife dies. he's completely estranged from his daughter, his grandchildren. and it was just very tragic. >> excuse me, but could you tell that story for people who don't remember that. exactly, where the schism came about in the mel/blagojevich family. it was over the landfill. >> it was over the landfill but it really began even earlier than that