. >> and then the speculation was, okay, if patty hearst, who's assumed at 19 to be sure vulnerable -tainly. >> -- but somewhat a good kid, you know, a family, the father, the big newspaper man. she's at berkeley college. then they must have brainwashed her. you say not so fast. >> well, you know, brainwashing is a journalistic term. it's not a medical term. and same thing with stockholm syndrome. what i try to do in the book is look at what she did as opposed to what label you want to apply to it. and frankly, what i see in her behavior is that she was a rational person. she was a 19-year-old kid, isolated, unhappy in her engagement to her boyfriend, steven weed, didn't get along with her mother, either, and -- >> wasn't he older? wasn't he -- >> not that much older, about four years older. he was a graduate student in philosophy. >> but she got sideways with the family on that, right? she moved in with him? >> exactly, living in sin. and if you look at how they approached her once she was captured, it wasn't brainwashing in a north korean sense, but it was just talking to her. it wa