you know, i am 100% with paul butler here. i think he's wise to say that this technically is an interesting argument. there's little case law on this. a court might spend time trying to disentang l the issues here. ultimately mike pence was elected to be the vice president, he was not elected to the united states senate. it's a little bit disingenuous to use this privilege to shield his testimony. pence ends up looking a lot like someone who doesn't want to testify. someone who has something to hide, and that's the sort of behavior that really piques federal prosecutors' interest. >> interesting. i assume we're going to talk to you about this again as it winds its way through the courts. joyce vance, thank you very much. and now to capitol hill with our other lead story. senators are getting a classified briefing on china. senator chris coons told us relations with china are at a cold point. those were his words. how cold exactly? joining me now is nbc news white house correspondent carol lee, nbc capitol hill correspondent ry

i am joined now by a lawyer, paul butler, he is a former federal prosecutor and professor at georgetown school of law. he is also an msnbc legal analyst, paul, thank you so much. mike pence was not subpoenaed by the january six committee as part of its investigation, he also didn't cooperate with them either because of what he considered it's quote, partisan nature, as jonathan and i were just talking about, he has now been subpoenaed, it appears, by the special counsel. how does that change the calculation for him? i'm >> so, this looks like trial prep to me. i think that i inexperienced public prosecution i -- like jack smith would only do this for an extremely compelling reason. two things, sam. i think prosecutors want to lock in pence's testimony if charges are brought against former president trump, and jack smith also wants to know what went down in those one-on-one conversations between trump and pence. the january 6th committee heard from pence's top aide, but of course, pence himself refused to talk to that committee. he will probably be forced to talk to the grand jury, when

i want to bring an embassy legal analyst paul butler, he joins me now, a professor at georgetown school of law and a former federal prosecutor. all, right paul make your plan for the people. show it be leaning anything from the subpoena or is jack smith just you know doing his job? >> both. this is what prosecutors do when they are seriously considering indicting somebody simone. it's a really big deal to haul the former vice president and to a grand jury. that is in the criminal investigation, jack smith is an experienced public corruption prosecutor. he would only do, this an extremely compelling reason. what i think is going, on prosecutors want to lock in mike pence's testimony and the case of charges that are brought against donald trump. jack smith also wants to know, what went down in those one-on-one conversations between trump and pence. the january six committee heard from trump's top or pence's top aides but of course pence refused to cooperate with that committee. >> so a lot of those lines paul, we are now hearing that the former president trump's attorneys are going to fig

joining me now is paul butler and kurt bardella, democratic strategist and former spokesperson for theoversight committee. i want to start with you, paul. speech and debate clause. make that make sense. >> it says members of congress cannot be questioned in other places about legislative activities. on january 6th, vice president pence was the vice president of the united states. he was not a member of congress. his argument is because the vice president does things like preside over the senate, vote if there's a tie, he's kind of sorta a member of congress. he's also being really disingenuous because he fought the january 6th commission by saying as a member of the executive department, he shouldn't be compelled to testify by congress. now he's invoking separations of power saying i'm a member of congress and therefore the executive shouldn't make me testify. >> he's also headed to iowa tomorrow. isn't this -- i mean, i have seen folks on air, i might have seen you say this on our air. mike pence needs to fight this because he's running for president. okay. and he needs to be able to

joining me now is former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, paul butler.graham is a sitting senator and pence was not a legislature who was overseeing it. he had the tie breaking vote, but can he get away with this argument in order not to be compelled to talk to the special counsel? >> almost certainly not. the clause says that members of congress shall not be questioned and in the other place about their legislative activities. of course, pence was not a member of congress on january 6th. his argument is that the vice president presides over the senate and he or she gets to vote if there's a tie. so that's kind of like the vice president being a member of congress. it's a really geeky and creative legal theory. if one of my law students came to me with an argument like this, i'd say that would be the good topic of a scholarly paper for law school, but don't make that argument in court because you're probably going to lose. >> we will see. paul butler, thank you very much. and coming up, a new inflation report is a mixed bag. we're going to explain what c

also with me kristin gibbens feden a former prosecutor and paul butler former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. catie, we mentioned how rare it is for a defendant in a murder trial to take the stand, how high the stakes are. give us the headlines for what we've seen so far on this extraordinary day at the trial. >> reporter: well, essentially alex murdaugh has rewritten his narrative, his alibi for june 7th on the stand, right away this morning as he took the stand, chris, he was asked directly did you kill maggie? did you kill paul? he was able to say emphatically he did not, and then he was asked immediately about that video at the kennels that places him at the scene just minutes before the murders. he says he lied to investigators about being there because he was paranoid at the time. he said he did not trust s.l.e.d. and also was taking a large number of opioids and that made him very suspicious about being honest. he knew he was going to be zeroed in as a suspect and he made up this story and had to stick to it. so basically that rewrites the time line that he gave in

debate clause saying he cannot be compelled to testify, and in in the conversations i had with paul butlerance, it's a great academic argument and it won't work in court. in defending a lawsuit someone charging that the 2021 election was illegitimate, the justice department, doj, has argued in court papers that vice president pence while presiding over the senate is subject to the constitution's speech and debate clause giving him immunity from legal scrutiny over his actions related to his legislative role. does that mean that he can potentially get out of talking to jack smith? >> so i'm going to give you a lawyer's answer. it's complicated. so by the way, far being it for me to disagree with joyce vance, she's an appellate lawyer, but i think this is a complicated issue in the role of the vice president, and i think it's a novel one, meaning that it's going to take some time to work this out. there is, in addition to that legal point, there is a factual point about whether the conversations that vice president was having with donald trump were sort of speech and debate type conversation

verdict live in the studio then that princess diana's , former that princess diana's, former butler and friend paul coronation plan dubbed operation harry in

verdict live in the studio then that princess diana's , former that princess diana's, former butler and friend paul burrell tackles the latest coronation plan dubbed operation harry in a hurry , but is whisked in deluded hurry, but is whisked in deluded duke, just 48 hours without his vindictive wife, meghan. the best compromise we could hope for paul's unmissable, no nonsense. take coming up at 1020, i warned against the bbc turning shamima begum into a podcast star, and now she's a warped after this sickening development and her bogus charm offensive has sparked so much outrage. i'm going to ask the terrorist sympathiser really deserves a platform to tell her story. that's how big take as her nosedives sensible scots nicholas sturgeon gives another car crash conference on her trans martin this i think you just referred to our bryson using the word ha does that mean you do? in fact she is a woman. anything into i am trying to rush an individual. you started seeing her shocking stuff. so is scheming gender reform bill her poll tax moment? i'm an instantly male. oliver assesses the fumbling first mi

verdict live in the studio then that princess diana's , former that princess diana's, former butler and friend paul burrell tackles the latest coronation plan dubbed operation harry in a hurry , but is whisked in deluded hurry, but is whisked in deluded duke, just 48 hours without his vindictive wife, meghan. the best compromise we could hope for paul's unmissable, no nonsense. take coming up at 1020, i warned against the bbc turning shamima begum into a podcast star, and now she's a warped after this sickening development and her bogus charm offensive has sparked so much outrage. i'm going to ask the terrorist sympathiser really deserves a platform to tell her story. that's how big take as her nosedives sensible scots nicholas sturgeon gives another car crash conference on her trans martin this i think you just referred to our bryson using the word ha does that mean you do? in fact she is a woman. anything into i am trying to rush an individual. you started seeing her shocking stuff. so is scheming gender reform bill her poll tax moment? i'm an instantly male. oliver assesses the fumbling first mi

butler as a second grader. who first provided the basketball venue and life lessons to these brothers? his name is paul austin. 11 years ago, there was an idea for a project that could give what other youth sports programs couldn't. diversity. the foundation is in marin city. a nonprofit program called play -- austin, a third-generation native, saw the need. >> started to see parents from the surrounding communities. commencing hey, i want my kid to participate. i started asking questions like why? would make you go to school where the majority of the kids, 98% are white. i want my kid to be around people of color. >> reporter: there just over one quarter million people. according to the census bureau, 85% are white. 3% are black. the largest representation of color live in marin city. a pocket of 3000 sandwiched between sausalito and -- valley. >> 90% of our kids, come from low income households. we raise the money in order to make sure we could pay for the fees and the uniforms. transportation and food. you name it, we make sure we take care of that. >> reporter: he brokered a new court inside the re

butler, as a second-grader on a fourth grade team. who first provided the basketball venue and life lessons to these gifted brothers ? his name is paultin, 11 years ago he had an idea for a project that could give what other marine county youth sports programs couldn't, diversity. the foundation is a marin city, a nonprofit called play marin. austin, a third-generation marin city native, saw the need. >> started to get a lot of parents from communities coming to the city saying i want my kid to participate in the program. i started asking questions like why? they said my kid goes to a school where the majority of the kids are all white. i want my kid to be around people of color. >> reporter: marin county has over a quarter million people. according to the u.s. census bureau, 85% are white, 3% are black. the largest representation of color live in marin city, and pocketed 3000 sandwiched between sausalito and mill valley. >> reporter: 90% of our kids come from low income households. we raise the money to pay for the league fees and uniforms, transportation, food, you name it, we make sure we take care of that. >> reporter: austin bro

butler is a second grader on a fourth grade team. who first provided the basketball venue and lifes lessons to the gifted brothers? his name is paulyears ago, he had an idea for a project that can give what other marin youth sports programs couldn't. diversity. the foundation is in marin city, a nonprofit program. austin, a third generation marin city native saw the need. >> i started to get parents from the surrounding communities in marin, coming to marin city saying i want my kid to participate in your program. i started asking questions like why? they were like well my kid goes to school where the majority of the kids, 98, 99% of the kids are white. i want my kid to be around some people of color. >> reporter: marin county has just over a quarter million people. according to u.s. census bureau, 85% are white. 3% are black. the largest representation of color live in marin city, a pocket of 3,000 sandwiched between sausalito and mill valley. >> 90% of our kids come from low income households. so we raise the money in order to make sure we can pay for fees, pay for uniforms, transportation, food. you name it, we make sure we tak

butler is a second grader on a fourth grade team. who first provided the basketball venue and life's lessons to the gifted brothers? his name is paulago, he had an idea for a project that can give of what marin youth sports programs couldn't. diversity. the foundation is marin city, a nonprofit program called play marin. austin, third generation native saw the need. >> i saw people from the surrounding communities coming to marin city saying i want my kid to participate. i asked why? they was like well my kid go to school where the majority of the kids, 99, 98% of the kids are white. i want my kid around some people of color. >> reporter: marin county has just over a quarter million people. according to u.s. census bureau, 85% are are black. largest representation of color live in marin city, a pocket of 3,000 sandwiched between sausalito and mill valley. >> 90% of our kids come from low income households. so we raise the money in order to be sure we can pay the league fees, pay for uniforms, transportation, food. you name it, we make sure we take care of that. >> reporter: austin brokered a new court inside this 65-year- old rec c

secrets with her sons before he dies people paul burrell been on this show what a lovely guy he's got cancer . lovely guy he's got cancer. diana's former butlerth. he told the she confided in a very moving and tragic story . stephanie, confided in a very moving and tragic story. stephanie, i must share diana's secrets with her sons and he must i think he already has . sons and he must i think he already has. mark. i feel like he said done it all since diana died in 97. and i feel if he was really had the best interests of william and harry, he would have already revealed what he to say. why is he waiting until he unfortunate him that he's got prostate cancer, why is he waiting until this to open up? and if so why has he done it on the front of a. why not call harry william? i just think the motives there are just a bit not honest for me. what do you think though, hilary, your professional aunt, you're a student of the human. yes spilled the beans about a lot of things, but always keep something in the locker. don't we which we might only reveal our deathbed. absolutely and we have no idea where that is . and have no idea where that is. and i

secrets with her sons before he dies people paul burrell been on this show what a lovely guy he's got cancer . lovely guy he's got cancer. diana's former butlerfided in a very moving and tragic story . stephanie, confided in a very moving and tragic story. stephanie, i must share diana's secrets with her sons and he must i think he already has . sons and he must i think he already has. mark. i feel like he said done it all since diana died in 97. and i feel if he was really had the best interests of william and harry, he would have already revealed what he to say. why is he waiting until he unfortunate him that he's got prostate cancer, why is he waiting until this to open up? and if so why has he done it on the front of a. why not call harry william? i just think the motives there are just a bit not honest for me. what do you think though, hilary, your professional aunt, you're a student of the human. yes spilled the beans about a lot of things, but always keep something in the locker. don't we which we might only reveal our deathbed. absolutely and we have no idea where that is . and have no idea where that is. and i think also, if you if y

butler in the mirror. yeah. you know, first he's not well and first of all, he's not well and paul first of all, he's not well andre not well . i had with paul years . i had dinner with paul years ago. i'm a patron. clare house is a children's hospice. i had dinner and i respected and loved this man so much because he would not talk about diana. he not talk about diana? no no, this. it's sprouts out of his mouth every and apparently he's the inside story is great. he wants to help the boys . he wants wants to help the boys. he wants to tell them the mother secrets because he forgets he was a member. whether he likes it or not. he was a member of staff. and he said, harry has discarded me and hasn't thought about the years that i spent with his mother. but what the secrets he knows well, she knows he left his room. everything so the thing in it, i just and i'm just so sad that he's made millions out of it . you know, he was out of it. you know, he was a servant . he was a member of servant. he was a member of staff. you know, and i admired and respect him so much for his privacy . and then he's blown it privacy. a