how does that sit with rwandans who oppose long—serving president paul kagame?ell, my guest is former political prisoner and opposition leader victoire ingabire umuhoza. does rwanda deserve the plaudits it's getting? victoire ingabire umuhoza, in kigali, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. it's a great pleasure to talk to you. ijust wonder, would you accept the basic proposition that in the last...almost three decades, rwanda has become one of africa's great success stories? yes, there is some achievement in development in our country, but the development that the people praise the administration of kagame to have achieved is only in kigali, the capital. it is really the cleanest city in the country and with beautiful buildings. but in rural areas, we have the poverty. the people live in abject poverty. i understand what you're saying, that, of course, one can get a false impression looking at kigali and all of the new development. but look at the words, the words that come from former us president bill clinton, who hailed paul kagame as one of the gre

he has met, of course, with tony blair, met with paul kagame , the leader of with paul kagame, the leadernew treaty to try and get this idea of moving migrants from this country illegally arrived to rwanda and then processed safely and not sent back to their own countries. he announced a big spending announcement. there 10 billion, 11 billion, forgive me for a new wind offshore wind farm on dogger bank with. so he is doing walking the walk as he would see it. i asked him on behalf of gb news viewers why it was that he's found another £800 million of our money to try and invest and help with climate change when so many people, viewers of gb news at home are suffering with the cost of living crisis, he said that he is a balance. he's got to make that he he's got to while getting the economy growing, he's got to make sure that the uk its fair share on the uk does its fair share on the global stage . so we'll wait and global stage. so we'll wait and see if your email basket out what viewers think of that. but he was certainly i think someone who is he's been a long day at here at here at cop

government forgets is a dictatorship which has been run by, you know, since 20 the year 2000, by paul kagame >> yes, that's right. but i was just talking to paul turner, a previous guest, because i've got on my screen here a nine sorry, a 2022 report from the unhcr refugee agency. their annual results report, which is it's 29 pages. and i've been through it. it talks about how well they treat 127,000 refugees and actually and it's not saying it's perfect . yes. but it's it's perfect. yes. but it's saying they're making good progress with some of the key objective is regarding housing and education and employment and many would read that and say, well, actually , what's the well, actually, what's the problem? let me challenge that. >> if you go and check a human rights watch, so a reputable source when it comes to this is your own united nations that you used to work for , you must trust used to work for, you must trust them. let me me get there. them. let me let me get there. let me get there. it is true that are treated well that refugees are treated well in , and there are many in rwanda,

how does that sit with rwandans who oppose long—serving president paul kagame? victoire ingabire umuhoza. does rwanda deserve the plaudits it's getting? victoire ingabire umuhoza, in kigali, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me.

how does that sit with rwandans who oppose long—serving president paul kagame? ijust wonder, would you accept the basic proposition that

government forgets is a dictatorship which has been run by, you know, since 20 the year 2000, by paul kagamehat's right. but i was just talking to paul turner, a previous guest, because i've got on my screen here a nine sorry, a 2022 report from the unhcr refugee agency. their annual results report, which is it's 29 pages. and i've been through it. it talks about how well they treat 127,000 refugees and actually and it's not saying it's perfect . yes. but it's it's perfect. yes. but it's saying they're making good progress with some of the key objective is regarding housing and education and employment and many would read that and say, well, actually , what's the well, actually, what's the problem? let me challenge that. >> if you go and check a human rights watch, so a reputable source when it comes to this is your own united nations that you used to work for , you must trust used to work for, you must trust them. let me me get there. them. let me let me get there. let me get there. it is true that are treated well that refugees are treated well in , and there are many in rwanda, and there

how does that sit with rwandans who oppose long—serving president paul kagame?

rwanda is run by a guy named paul kagame . paul kagame is well paul kagame.dictator. he's he's what i would call the putin of africa. he's got a 99, quote , approval he's got a 99, quote, approval rating in his country. he's got a 99, quote, approval rating in his country . anybody rating in his country. anybody who's opposed to him ends up dead, arrested or in exile. very close to the hero of hotel rwanda, paul rusesabagina , who rwanda, paul rusesabagina, who was kidnapped and put in in prison in rwanda and sentenced to 25 years for criticise kagame. and this is a country that we're supposed to be sending back political refugees to if we want to tell political refugee not to come to the united kingdom , we could just as united kingdom, we could just as easily send them back to where they're coming from. iranian actor artists send them back to iran. if that's the idea. if you want to turn people off. but the idea of sending people to a country which is known be country which is known to be a complete dictatorship makes no sense. and whoever came up with this

. >> but look, the president, paul kagame, has been in office for 23 unchallenged .ears, unchallenged. and that doesn't sound like democracy to me. even the blessed margaret thatcher couldn't manage 23 years, but the real problem that thatcher couldn't manage 23 yea governmenteal problem that thatcher couldn't manage 23 yea governmenteal pgot em that thatcher couldn't manage 23 yea governmenteal pgot here 1at thatcher couldn't manage 23 yea governmenteal pgot here is, the government has got here is, on hand, they're on the one hand, they're saying that is sort of that rwanda is this sort of genocidal, genocidal hellhole which will put people off coming on hand, they're on the other hand, they're saying marvellous place on the other hand, they're sayingyou marvellous place on the other hand, they're sayingyou caniarvellous place on the other hand, they're sayingyou can sit ellous place on the other hand, they're sayingyou can sit on)us place on the other hand, they're sayingyou can sit on the place on the other hand, they're sayingyou can sit on the patio where you ca

. >> paul kagame obviously we >> paul kagame is obviously we have a deep partnership with rwanda, whicha mine. >> yeah, we are in the sense that we keep giving them shedloads of money for a load of people we're actually people that we're not actually sending got sending there. but i've got tomorrow's newspaper front pages today, so you will of today, so you will be ahead of the tomorrow's the game with all of tomorrow's news sofa tonight, news and on the sofa tonight, it's team of the mail on it's my top team of the mail on sundays. at large sundays. editor at large charlotte griffiths , who the charlotte griffiths, who got the bbc john sergeant the bbc icon john sergeant and the only star junaid only way is essex star junaid ahmed. absolutely top panel it's a very special hour coming your way christys tonight . way on patrick christys tonight. very shortly. i will bring you that exclusive with laura ferrari, the woman behind nigel's throne, as it were. it's the first time that she's spoken on television . and we're going on television. and we're going to go to that after the headunes.

. >> paul kagame obviously we >> paul kagame is obviously we have a deep partnership with rwanda, which we are in the sense that we keep giving them shedloads of money for a load of people we're actually people that we're not actually sending got sending there. but i've got tomorrow's newspaper front pages today, so you will of today, so you will be ahead of the tomorrow's the game with all of tomorrow's news sofa tonight, news and on the sofa tonight, it's team of the mail on it's my top team of the mail on sundays. at large sundays. editor at large charlotte griffiths , who the charlotte griffiths, who got the bbc john sergeant the bbc icon john sergeant and the only star junaid only way is essex star junaid ahmed. absolutely top panel it's a very special hour coming your way christys tonight . way on patrick christys tonight. very shortly. i will bring you that exclusive with laura ferrari, the woman behind nigel's throne, as it were. it's the first time that she's spoken on television . and we're going on television. and we're going to go to that after the headunes. headlines. >> th

has beenin unlawful because paul kagame has been in power for 20 years.unlawful on the grounds of one specific issue, which was rife ailment refoulement. however, we want to pronounce it, the idea that people might be then deported from rwanda to the country, from which they fled in the first place. the new treaty the first place. the new treaty the government has signed with rwanda makes that illegal. well, uh, is that not addressing the supreme court's concern is and therefore, does it not to some extent address yours ? extent address yours? >> uh, to an extent it does. i mean, when you've got obstacles in your way, you've got to problems to be solved. the government has has found a way to try and get around the issue of starting their rwanda policy. um, i put it back in the wider context and asked the question, is this really the best the government can do to set up a deportation scheme to a country like rwanda ? go back to what like rwanda? go back to what i was saying a few minutes ago . was saying a few minutes ago. are there not many more ways that

is very popular paul kagame is very popular amongst the electorate . popular amongst the electorate. very well of him. he's always out and around and about and the way that they govern their is up to their country really is up to them. they have a very them. but they have a very popular president, but they have a majority of women in parliament. so they're very progressive in that respect, the far more progressive than we are in actual fact. and in britain, in actual fact. and uh, you know, in terms of children , i've taken my children children, i've taken my children there , uh, they've been very there, uh, they've been very safe. you wouldn't take your children to a place wasn't children to a place that wasn't safe. uh, so idea that these safe. uh, so the idea that these illegal immigrants can't be sent there is an absolute nonsense. and supreme court are just and the supreme court are just have got wrong . they've been have got it wrong. they've been listening united nations . listening to the united nations. the irony is united nations the irony is the united nations actually sen

paul kagame i can't believe this needs spelling out.l was re—elected in 2017, not with 50% of the vote, something that prime ministers and parties of power in this country don't get. not with 60, 70, 80% of the vote with 99% of the vote. i wouldn't want to be an asylum seeker in rwanda. >> yeah, well, just because they have a president who receives a 99% support, how do you think he how do you think he receives that support? >> darren? well he must be a very popular man. >> he must. >> he must. >> guys, come on. you know, there are people that are better placed to deal with the idea of brand as a country, but we've had home secretaries had successive home secretaries that gone there that have that have gone there that have set up scheme, that have set up the scheme, that have looked set up the scheme, that have loo the supreme court actually at >> the supreme court actually at times it was an times didn't rule that it was an unsafe country . it was a unsafe country. it was just a small risk that might be needed to have tightened up. and

the pm did meet with paul kagame, who's the rwanda leader, the rwanda rwandan president, for 15 minutesk to you, is to make very clear in uk law that that they can that a migrants arriving here can be sent back to rwanda . here can be sent back to rwanda. that will that could well disapply elements of their human rights. so that's and that will be the contentious part. getting that through the house of lords after christmas will be immense. >> thanks >> okay, christopher, thanks very . very much indeed. >> now , after 12 years living as >> now, after 12 years living as the star residence in edinburgh , the star residence in edinburgh, zoo, giant pandas yang guang and tian tian, known to you and me as sunshine and sweetie , heading as sunshine and sweetie, heading back to china today. i love that abfab take on. sorry i couldn't help myself. i mean, there's no other way to say it. >> well, listen, more than a decade long agreement with china now cost the zoo £35,000 a month. believe it or not, that's a lot of money. and delivered key advancements in giant panda reproductive physiology . e

apparently paul kagame, leader and kagame, the rwandan leader and rishi sunak was seen very close togetherstill think they have a good rapport. but i personally just wonder if this rwandan scheme is doomed. i mean, is it ever going to get going? >> i think it is doomed because i think many times does the i think how many times does the supreme have say, no, supreme court have to say, no, it's and it's not going to work. and we're keeping trying to fight to overturn it and it's not working. i think we need to be thinking how we're going thinking about how we're going to handle the crisis in this country first. but it is refreshing hear from rwanda refreshing to hear from rwanda because think it's been a bit because i think it's been a bit of a one sided battle where we've about the we've heard constantly about the uk to send migrants uk trying to send migrants over to rwanda . and i thought i to rwanda. and i thought i always are we just always felt like, are we just imposing country ? so imposing on their country? so it's of good to hear from it's kind of good to hear from their that actua