it's trump and pence.nd you have the vice president knowing he lost, saying there's got to be a peaceful transfer of power. so you have an example just in his person of someone who was doing what you're supposed to do and you have an example of someone who's not. that is going to speak volumes in terms of him just being there and setting the example for how you are supposed to behave. >> unlike mark meadows and other very big witnesses in this, case, mike pence was in the capitol on january 6th, and they were chanting that they wanted to kill him. just the drama associated with his testimony it's gonna be something. we are going to squeeze in a quick break right here. we will keep all our guests in place. we'll be back with more right after this break. i'm kareem abdul jabbar. i was diagnosed with afib. the first inkling that something was wrong was i started to notice that i couldn't do things without losing my breath. i couldn't make it through the airport, and every like 20 or 30 yards i had to sit down

pence: the fast three.overnor reynolds: so give me one funny campaign moment on the campaign trail. former v.p. pence: just one? governor reynolds: i know, exactly. anybody that's been out there and there's multiple. right. former v.p. pence: well, i would say how many times people tell me that your husband looks like me. governor reynolds: that's what i was gonna say too. i was gonna say so, kevin was at an event that the vice president was at and they came up and asked him for his autograph and he goes, well, you want my autograph? why? and he goes, uh they said, well, vice president, i'm kevin reynolds. so we, we can stump for you any time you need somebody to stump for you. former v.p. pence: let me say with confidence he is a very handsome man. [laughter] governor reynolds: i agree. you have been on the fairgrounds a couple of days now. favorite fair food you're looking forward to having? former v.p. pence: apparently, i have not had a lemon shakeup. i'm a lemon shake up guy at the state fair and i can

pence is on vacation as vice president. get pence home. pence is now the target. because as major said, everything had failed for trump and giuliani in the courts. they were struggling to have any kind of strategy moving ahead. the electors had already voted in mid-december of 2020, december 30th the turning point, focus on pence, that is what bannon and other outside advisors tell trump and on january 3rd pence goes to the senate parliamentarian and she tells him, sir sir, you've nothing to do with january 6th except count the votes. he says, that's what my lawyers have been telling me, that is what i'm going to do. the next day, january 4th, 2021, john eastman, the conservative lawyer who authors this blueprint for a cool, in the oval, with pence, trump confronts pence in front of them, he says, listen to john, also threatening, bas on our reporting. follow the eastman plan. pence sayi will still think about it, let me take my te but i can't do it, mr. president. the next day trump calls in a january 6th come heads into the oval office for the ultimate one-on-on

pence, thinks mr. pence is going to be a helpful witness for the defense. on what you know from the january 6th committee and based on what you know from the indictment your response? >> well, i hope that the president's lawyers then stop putting up hurdles and indicate that they want a speedy trial. that's, i think, where we can get to the root of this. if they want to have their day in court, they should remove any hurdles and they should seek the truth and seek their day in court. i think the former president's afraid of that and i think the american public can see right through that and knows, but, look, this is something that we want to be adjudicated in the courts. we'll let them hash out what that looks like under cross-examination. i played a royal in the pence hearing and i can tell you, i wish that he would have shared some of those notes and some of that information with the january 6th committee, but it's clear that vice president pence took notes and has a pretty good memory of what the president told him and the pressure that he was under from

pence as a witness. president trump also said this week that he never told mike pence that he is, quote, too honest as alleged in the indictment. is the president prepared to say that under oath in a court of law? >> the issue was described in mr. pence's book with respect to some of the litigation that was going on, and mr. pence said that he recalls mr. trump saying that mr. pence's position on a particular piece of litigation that was going on was hyper technical and hyper legal. that's a side issue. no one is going to be concerned about that. i cannot wait -- i cannot wait until i have the opportunity to cross-examine mr. pence, because what he will do is completely eliminate any doubt that mr. trump, president trump firmly believed that the election irregularities had led to inappropriate results. >> george: and he has -- >> what was so frustrating for president trump was that he thought that vice president pence was certifying an election that was not lawfully held, and he had every right to petiti

pence: thank you for your service. were you a marine? >> army. mr. pence: infantry. a real guy. >> mr. vice president. army, combat. that is for not showing up.

hang mike pence. hang mike pence.. hang mike pence. >> that one of the enduring images from that day. pence is also a victim in all of this, targeted that very day as the riot was unfolding at 2:24 p.m. trump attacked pence for refuse to go interfere with the electoral college certification. at that point he tweeted this, in part, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution. one minute later the secret service was forced to evacuate the vice president, his family and his team from the senate chamber to a secure location. we later learned that pence spent several hours in a loading dock underneath the building as law enforcement worked to push back the mob. at one point he was less than 100 feet from the violent crowd. john? >> joining us now former trump white house lawyer jim scholz and elliot williams. friends, there's no real dispute here about what happened, right? the actions that took place generally speaking everyone agrees took place. so what

joining me is marc short, mike pence's chief of staff pence put out a statement after.inder that anyone who puts himself over the constitution should never be president of the united states. what was his reaction? >> it's similar to the reaction he gave on the 7th when he made comments about anyone who puts himself above the constitution should not be serving in the role of the united states. >> one thing we learned in this indictment when it was new, pence had these contemporaneous notes from a meeting with trump on january 4th. he had asked pat cipollone to deliberately not attend. did pence usually take notes? why defiel the need to take notes after that meeting? >> i think he took some notes. it was specific to that meeting. they were subpoenaed by the special counsel. it was part of the testimony that he gave, but i think that, you know, that particular meeting was obviously incredibly important because it was in that meeting that the president was more or less asking the vice president to throw out the electors. and then subsequently there came a strategy to say,

mike pence helped save democracy.re that trump was putting on him to be his partner in a coup d'etat. and pence said, no, he held firm. at one key moment he reached out to former vice president dan quayle, who served with george herbert walker bush, and pence now comes down as a bit of a profiles in courage for what he was able to do on those days leading up to january 6th. >> we only have about 30 seconds or so, doug, but what does it say about the state of our democracy? are you discouraged that an event like january 6th can even happen or encouraged that our institutions seemingly held? >> i think our institutions are holding up. the attorney general, merrick garland, and the justice department here has done an extraordinary job, jack smith has worked diligently. this is somebody that used to look at human rights abuses and kosovo war. he's a genius investigator of fraud and crime. and he has slammed the hammer of justice on donald trump. trump still has a right to defend himself and he will. but i at least feel th

pence: thank you for your service. were you a marine? >> army. mr. pence: infantry. a real guy. >> mr. vice president. army, combat. that is for not showing up. >> c-span's campaign 2024 coverage your front row seat to the presidential election. watch our coverage on the campaign trail with announcements, meet and greets, speeches and events. to make up your own mind. campion 2024 on the c-span network, c-span now or anytime online at c-span.org. c-span, your unfiltered view of politics. ♪ >> c-span's washington journal. a live forum involving you to discuss the latest issues of government, politics and public policy from washington to across the country. coming up tuesday morning, we will talk about president biden's economic agenda and how voters are responding with federal financial analytics founder karen and then julie from kaiser health news discusses upcoming congressional health spending deadlines and key measures needing reauthorization. c-span's washington journal. it joining the conversation live at 7:00 eastern tuesday morning on c-span, c-span now, or on

pence pushes back again, the morning of january 5th, pence's legal team met with eastman who, again, that pence unilaterally reject electors from specific states. when they told easement that this proposal would result in disastrous situation where the election might, quote, have to be decided in the streets. trump's pressure on pence -- and on january 6th. during his speech at the ellipse's -- [interpreter] quote, do the right thing, and quote. following the indictment, here's what pence had to say. >> on that, day president trump asked me to choose him over my oath to the constitution. i chose the constitution of the united states and i always will. >> it's worth noting that pence and attorney by trade, found it necessary to document these encounters through notes. a legal term referring to a type of evidence used to corroborate a witness has to money. i'm joined now by olivia troye, former senior adviser to mike pence and -- counterterror advisor. olivia, good to see you. i've been thinking all week, i'm wondering what you were feeling as you read through this document which your

look, nikki haley and pence showed the strength of experience, kind of a steady hand, pence still probablyter. and i think what they heard from desantis is exactly what they wanted to hear from desantis tonight, even though it was awkward, just as they did from vivek. >> you know this reminds me a little bit, was ted cruz in 2016, totally -- >> that's not a comparison anyone wants. >> ted cruz finished a strong second last time, a distant second, but a clear second. he did better than jab. but ron desantis was saying the things that maga people like, a bit awkwardly, delivering his talking points, but he was serviceable. >> i just want to play this soros clip, where he talks about soares. because the thing about desantis is he kind of feels like he has a mad libs or bingo list of words he supposed to use. and this is just a good example of it. >> you have george soros funding these radical left-wing district attorneys, they get into office and they say they're not going to prosecute crimes they disagree with. when the inmates start running the asylum, there's one guy in this entire country

pence went on a statement after the indictment came, out it was a strong one.elf over the constitution should never be president of the united states. what was his reaction to reading through that indictment? >> caitlin i think it's similar to the comments that he made on june 7th, when he announced his candidacy. he made very similar comments about the reality that anyone who puts himself above the constitution should not be serving in that role as president of the united states, or anybody who asks is vice president violated his oath to the constitution as well. >> one thing that we learned that with news that pence had contemporaneous notes from a meeting that he had with trump who is obviously referred to as the defendant here. on january 4th, trump had asked the white house counsel, pat cipollone, to deliberately not attend that meeting, according to this indictment. did pence usually take notes? why did he feel the need to take notes after that meeting? >> i think he took some notes, the reality is that it wasn't specific that, meeting and those notes wer

. >> hang mike pence, hang mike pence! >> stop and take it all in, we lived through that. as of last week, no one in government, nobody at the top had been even bothered about it. let alone indicted about it. that all just changed this week. so if you feel that, if sometimes you kind of stop and you take a breath and you get goosebumps and you say, maybe we're on the road to some accountability. by accountability, i mean the justice system process. i do not mean prejudging the defendant. he will get his day in court, he's legally presumed innocent. but we have a system where an interest special counsel, who historically has prosecuted democrats like john edwards and republicans and others. jack smith has gathered this evidence together, and this is what he says accountability looks like. he will bring it to court. he will work across the plots. i just showed you a couple, not all of them. and he can only bring a case like this if he, a quite experienced and veteran prosecutor, says he has the goods that he can prove beyond

pence rejected the scheme. that's why they weren't counted. >> absolutely. of course. that's how the political process works. >> no, it doesn't. >> there were no trickery, there was no deceit. >> because mike pence said yes, that's exactly what would have happened. >> no. with freedom of the press -- you have to let me finish, though. you asked me a question and i hope you're going to let me finish because the government alleges ke alleges deceit and trickery and all of this played out in the open. it's all free speech. there was a supreme court decision, hammerschmidt that says when you're exercising free speech, you're not engaging in fraud on the government. >> that's just one example of the actions. that's one example of the actions in this indictment. and this is a long list we compiled from the indictment. it more than a dozen not speech, actions, that the former president allegedly took. >> like what? >> where do i even start? >> asking the arizona speaker to interfere with electors -- >> asking. asking

so he's basically saying he aspirationally said to mike pence you know after you know mike pence said i'm not going to do it, he said to him, you're too honest. then he also aspirationally you know, said well i'm going to have to now publicly target you. so yes, he's going to obviously his lawyer is not going to admit. he's not going to admit what he can't deny. he's going to deny what he can't admit. and that is that as the vice president said, he was asked to literally reject votes. that's his problem mr. trump has. >> and another one of mr. lauro's defenses was that you can't charge mr. trump for what he did when he was president but listen to what mitch mcconnell had to say during the second impeachment of 2021 when he was arguing against you can't impeach him. he's no longer the president. for things he did then. >> president trump is still liable for everything he did while he was in office. as an ordinary citizen. unless the statute of limitations is run, still liable for everything he did while he was in office. didn't get away with anything yet. yet. we have a criminal justic

this was days before the riot, pence telling investigators how trump was beraing pence by phone, and when pence stated the obvious fact, trump responded, quote, you're too honest. everyone saw the danger pence faced from trump fans. security video showed opinions fleeing from the mob. his boss unleashed. now, the indictment shows late into the night after pence fled, after law enforcement restored order, after everything went down, trump and his aides continued their plot to hijack the certification. they used that violence and pressed on. it shows trump trying to reach two senators as late as 6:00 p.m. that day. that's after everything went down. and smith ends the speaking indictment with that as the damning climax, showing while the nation saw the senate reconvene on the floor ransacked by trump fans, the convicted seditionists, horror at the insurrection that just unfolded that sent them fleeing and running and scared, that word insurrection was first used on the floor that night by republican mitch mcconnell. while that was the widespread public reaction, this new indictment sho

for example, mike pence's testimony. what else do you see, tim heaphy, knowing that you've been in command at this evidence longer than any of us? >> yeah, lawrence, thank you for the invitation. as i read the indictment, it sounded really familiar. it sounded pretty much like the aged 45-page that we issued. it sounded very similar to vice chair cheney's opening statement in our first hearing in the spring of 2022, where she laid out a multi part intentional plan to prevent the certification at the election and to thwart democracy. there is not a lot of new information, this is a compelling story, and i will leave it to neal and others to put it into historical conduct 's. but the facts have been compelling and out there for a long time. there are some things, as we mentioned, vice president evident testimony about their communication that he had with the president that you have already articulated. that is important. i think pat cipollone as given to information beyond what he told us. i think that there are people who

on the other hand, with pence, a problem for pence is that donald trump could have disagreed with pencether he should have like chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream and republican voters will take donald trump's side. it almost as a matter whether things. >> let's go back to dana bash with another candidate. dana bash? >> thank you so much. i have vivek ramaswamy here with me. thank you so much for being with. me >> thank you so, much dana bash. >> we are expecting the incoming that you got it tonight? >> it was an honor. i took it as a badge of honor as the 38-year-old outsider in this race who has never been in a political debate to be a center stage and see a lot of establishment politicians be threatened by mris. i'm thrilled. and it actually gave me an opportunity to introduce myself to the people of this country. we are just getting warmed up. and i'm really thrilled with how it went. >> i want to play for our voters a moment that you had with nikki haley about foreign policy. >> got it. >> you are choosing a murderer over a pro-american country. >> [applause] -- >> first of

on the other hand of pence, the problem for pence is that donald trump could've disagreed with pence about whether he should like chocolate ice cream and novella. and republican voters will take donald trump's side. it almost does not matter what the thing is. >> it's going to do another candidate. ? >> thank you so much. i'm very vague worldwide here with me. thanks for being here. we are expecting the incoming got? >> it was an honor. i took it as a bachelor. as the 38-year-old outsider in this race has never been in a political debate. to be at center stage. and established politicians threatened by morris. i'm thrilled. it actually gave me an opportunity to introduce myself to the people of this country. we're just getting warmed. i'm thrilled with how. when >> on to play for our viewers a moment that nikki haley on foreign policy. >> you are choosing a murderer over pro american. >> thank you, i wish you well in your future career. >> you've been pushing this all week. >> you want to defund israel. when we address that. >> i will address each of those right now. those laws of a

so in addition to the new details about mike pence it's possible we saw a new mike pence yesterday as well when he was asked about this case. i want to play a little bit of what he said about how he was being pushed to overturn the election. >> let's be clear on the point. they didn't ask for a pause. the president specifically asked me and his gaggle of crack pot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes. >> that felt different to me than what mike pence has written or said in interviews. and if that's -- >> it was different than what he's said. >> thank you. >> if that is the mike pence we see on the witness stand as kate said, how much of a difference does that make? >> talking like that on a witness stand he's a heck of a witness. one of the tagsfacts in the indictment. at one point trump said to pence, you're just too honest. and that is a powerful bit of evidence -- >> begging them to put mike pence on the stand. >> pence, if you remember, he wouldn't cooperate with the january 6th committee. but he clearly cooperated and felt he had no choice but to cooperate with the criminal

but yes, pence was under tremendous pressure. it wasn't only just mike pence.pennsylvania, in michigan, in georgia and trying to get these folks to come up with alternative slates of electors and somehow discard the state certified election results that he did not like. so i am not at all shocked by these criminal charges. and it's, again, astounding to me that mike pence in some respects believes chargestient have been brought, but at the same time, pence is saying that what trump did was unconstitutional, a violation of his oath of office. >> you know what's so crazy? you talk about that, it seems so obvious that pence should be speaking out against trump. but he waited so long, and now we know what trump was doing behind the scenes, and yet, pence ultimately did the right thing. he fulfilled his constitutional duties. but he kind of left it hanging out there for people to wonder, like, whether he actually could have acted differently. he didn't come back more forcefully until i think that's why this is so surprising, until now we learn of these details? >> y

can we talk about mike pence?, reading in this indictment, that interaction seems to be the heart of the government's case. >> he's at the center of the object of the conspiracy according to the indictment. he is the one they were asking to violate the law according to prosecutors and i was so struck by his boards yesterday. >> no, he is not. he unleashed the hounds in terms of his words against donald trump. it is not like mike pence to refer to anyone, let alone the former president's lawyers when he said they were a bunch of chuckleheads -- i've never heard him speak like that. >> what donald trump wanted to hear in his itching ears. that is not pencian. >> something has changed because frankly he's not registering in the polls very much so does he feel that maybe, hey, this is the time to take the gloves off. >> the question is there are signals from his team that they'll make the campaign about other issues and it's the integrity question. mike pence's team, people around him have been telling all of us for m

pence: john, thank you. when i wrote "so help me god" as a about lesson learned early in my life and challenges at this season of my public career. but i hope that people who take a look at this book see that it has also been described as the most wholesome defense of the record of the trump-penn's administration because i could not be more proud to have been vice president in an administration that rebuild our military, rolled back taxes and regulations, created 7 million good paying jobs, unemployment was at a 50 year low. we unleashed american energy and became a net exporter of energy for the first time in 70 years. we secured our southern border and reduce illegal immigration by 90%. [applause] and we appointed more than 300 conservatives to our federal courts at every level included justice neil gorsuch, brett kavanaugh and amy coney barrett. that conservative majority gave america a new beginning and -- in the right to life in the last six months. [applause] to me, it was a privilege to be a part of i

the pence campaign and mike pence himself certainly as a witness, is pointing out that it was mike pencehe strategy from working. >> obviously for mike pence it was very personal. he was he who had to be rushed out of the building. he's been very consistent and deserves a lot of credit for that. i don't understand why some people who were also in the building don't feel the same type of anger. this was an attack on our place of work, our system of government. it should make you blood boil. they're playing politics with the base and it's really disappointing. >> brendan buck, thanks to you. a test of democracy. that's next with presidential historian michael beschloss on how these revelations on the trump indictment makes this such an important moment for the country. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. y. you're watching "andrea mitchell reports" on msnbc. by this champ. and this future champ. and if we proffer it, we know you'll proffer it too. he's cocky for a nineteen year old. (♪♪) rsv can be a dangerous virus... [sneeze] ...for those 60 and older. it's not just a col

a lot from mike pence. you see him in various places. notes provided t d by him under subpoena. >> you speak a little bit more about the role former vice president mike pence played in this indictment. in the indictment, there's new stuff there about his interactions with the president and what the president said to him and what the president said to other people about basically i got it. i'll handle pence. >> that, that to me is one of the most interesting pieces of this indictment, you have trump saying this was new information, trump saying to someone else who said should other people go talk to mike pence, and trump said, i i've got it, i'm paraphrasing, i'm talking to the vice president. that was interesting. much of what we know from the pence/trump conversations has been out either through the house select committee or media reports but there were more details, notes that this was based on that pence provided under subpoena, you have pence saying to trump in one conversation that he doesn't have the authority to do what trump want

pence pointed had out.er him a pardon, that means that he also agree that he is guilty and he has to accept it by saying that he is guilty. so if you really think through that, is that the best approach? >> also trying to overturn an election and stay in power is some some how legitimate pl. >> normalized, yeah. >> everybody, thank you. we have a lot more to talk about from last night's debate and we'll see you in a bit. >>> some of the candidates on that stage will also join us this morning. we're looking forward to being joined by former governor chris christie, he will join us ahead. >>> and also ahead, we're live at the fulton county jail in georgia where former president donald trump is expected to surrender right there in a matter of hours. introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. [c[camera shutter sfx] he thinks his flaky, red patches are all people seeee. otezla is the #1 prescribed pilill to treat plaque psoriasis. [ned?] it can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine b

for example, mike pence's testimony. what else do you see, tim heaphy, knowing that you've been in command at this evidence longer than any of us? >> yeah, lawrence, thank you for the invitation. as i read the indictment, it sounded really familiar. it sounded pretty much like the aged 45-page that we issued. it sounded very similar to vice chair cheney's opening statement in our first hearing in the spring of 2022, where she laid out a multi part intentional plan to prevent the certification at the election and to thwart democracy. there is not a lot of new information, this is a compelling story, and i will leave it to neal and others to put it into historical conduct's. but the facts have been compelling and out there for a long time. there are some things, as we mentioned, vice president evident testimony about their communication that he had with the president that you have already articulated. that is important. i think pat cipollone as given to information beyond what he told us. i think that there are people who

>> pence is a traitor. >> i'm glad they didn't hang you. and that was the greeting that former vice president mike pence received at the iowa state fair this week. can you call it a greeting if it involves a suggested death threat? pence did the best he could to gin up enthusiasm for himself by flipping patties and eating a pork burger in the pork tent. admittedly, it is hard out there when you are only polling at 3% in the first of the nation caucus state. south carolina senator tim scott, who has not yet arrived at the state fair, is trickling the former vice president right now. he is at 9% in the latest poll. governor ron desantis is at 20%. but everyone, all of them, they are all absolutely dwarfed by the man who will be showing up at the fair tomorrow, thrice indicted, former president donald trump. i'm joined now by tim miller, writer at large -- host of simone right here on msnbc, thank you both for being here. tim, let me just start with you, since you've logged a lot of time in republican circles

at 11:15 a.m., trump called pence to reject legitimate votes. pence refuses. announces the certification proceeding is about to bring in. and as trump finishes his speech on the ellipse, the trump mob start to advance toward the capitol, that when the insurrection starts. at around 2:13 pm, the crowd breaks into the capitol building. and when trump is told this news, he refuses to stop his supporters. at 2:24 pm, trump tweets, pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and constitution. one minute later, secret service evacuates pence to a secure location. and at 4:17 pm, trump releases a video message on twitter repeating election lies. now, as the evening comes, trump and coconspirator one attempt to exploit the violence. calling republican lawmakers to convince them to delay the certification of electoral votes. at 7:01 pm, the white house counsel asked trump to withdraw his objections and allow for certification to continue. he refuses. the senate and house come back into session hours later, and come together in

it was pence's job. he was also running against kennedy.ig, ones at the time they did it, there was a recount underway. whereas here we did not have a recount. it's a very big distinction. >> it was court ordained recount, right? it was not ordained -- it was not a recount that was asked for by the trump camp. it was court ordained, right? >> it was quarter and a, and and ultimately the court said that kennedy won the recount. so his fake electors later got ratified, if we're going to do an analogy, but here is the key fact, the governor of that state, hawaii, certified kennedys electors. and transmitted it to the vp at the time, nixon, who said it was correct. here, we don't have the governors, we have the governor saying trump, you're wrong, it's not right, we're not doing this, don't try to manipulate, us don't try to push us. it's a very key distinction in this situation, in that situation there is a recount from the court, number, one number two, kennedy ultimately prevailed and number three, the governor signed off. on it this is just

i think pence's voice is very important here.lieve that his opponents will be looking to see what effect if any this has on his poll numbers. if we begin to see pence polling better, we might see tim scott shift his approach to january 6th. so far he's actually not opened the door at all to criticizing the former president for his role. and perhaps you might see desantis change his approach. at the moment desantis is taking a purely legal procedural approach to dealing with the january 6th indictment. he's not come out swinging at all against the president. >> stephanie, there's been a sameness to the republican party's reaction to various charges, indictments against trump. with the manhattan d.a., well, he's just a manhattan d.a., democratic state, you know, find yourself a special counsel. with the classified documents you heard, well, this is too small bore, what about what pence and biden did. now you have a special counsel focused on what even republicans or you'll hear some in the conservative media say was a consequential

on january 7th, vice president mike pence certify the 2020 election for joseph r. biden.24 hours. the indictment reveals so many more details that we did not know before. details that show a much more sophisticated effort to overturn the election than we originally understood. and after a quick break, i'm going to talk about all these new details with mark harris. he's a former senior investigative counsel for the house select committee on the january 6th attack. nuary 6th attack to this day i only paid what i had to pay for the device... when i go back everything is covered. there's so much you're missing by not having hearing aids. we'll find you a hearing aid that fits your lifestyle and budget at one of our over fifteen hundred locations. call miracle ear at 1-800-miracle and schedule your free, no obligation hearing evaluation today. (fan #1) there ya go! that's what i'm talkin' about! and schedule your free, (josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best pla

pence rejected this scheme.they weren't counted. >> absolutely. of course! and that's how the political process works. >> no, it doesn't. >> there was no trickery. there was no deceit, because if mike pence had said yes then that's exactly what would have happened. >> no because -- and that's only one -- i don't want to -- freedom of the press -- >> i don't want to go down. >> let me finish, though, no, but you asked me a question and i hope you can let me finish. >> go ahead. >> the government alleges deceit or trickery and all of this played out in the open. it's all free speech. there was a supreme court decision, hammerschmidt when is right on points you're not infringing on the government and that's what unfortunately, most people don't understand and that's just one of the examples of the actions and the indictment. >> you're entitled and this is a long list that you compiled from the indictment. i mean, there are -- it's more than a dozen, not speech, actions that the former president alleges took. >> lik

vice president mike pence is doing.for him to stand on the debate stage on august 23rd, whether or not donald trump is on that stage, and speak that truth. i think mike pence has gotten a little looser because it seems to me that he has not been in crowds like this for a while. former vice president doing a lot of speeches, not out there with the people per se. he's had a couple go rounds being out there with people and he is someone who is comfortable on the campaign trail, honey. unlike governor ron desantis. >> yeah. i want to talk about that. desantis's candidacy, as we all, know is not gone as planned, tim. who is actually -- if anyone is able to reap the benefits in trump getting a real peril in terms of his legal exposure here and potentially losing some strength in the polls, who is in the best position to inherit some of that fall off? , the assumption would be desantis, but i wonder what you think of tim scott. >> i think this is why desantis is still around, probably him, which is not a great sign because of

pence's life was put at risk on january 6th.r about trump, quote, his reckless words endangered my family. trump's rhetoric about overturning the 2020 election has put others in danger, too, including the family of my next guest, who is speaking out for the first time, sophia kinzinger worked in the trump white house, including directly for then vice president mike pence, as his director of strategic media. he's also married to adam kinzinger, the former republican congressman annow a cnn senior political commentator. last year, congressman kinzinger revealed some of the threats his family had faced over his role on the january 6th committee. >> i guess i can't say a whole lot more other than i hope you naturally die as quickly as [ bleep ] possible, you piece of [ bleep ]. >> you backstabbing [ bleep ], [ bleep ], [ bleep ], like a dog. >> hey you little [ bleep ], [ bleep ]. i'm going to come protest in front of your house this weekend. i know who your family is and we're gonna get you. you little [ bleep ]. >> wow. sophia kin

that's trump's lawyer saying, yeah, he asked mike pence to pause the whole election. indictment says he asked mike pence to pause the election and he couldn't do that. >> that's what the whole case is about. yes, he basically acknowledged that what is in the indictment factually speaking is true. he's suggesting that it's okay or he's got a constitutional argument that he's going to make that somehow it was within the scope of the president's powers. that is a very risky strategy but frankly at least it lines up with the facts. it's not like this kind of speculative notion that they somehow won the election, at least now we're getting closer to the truth which is what a trial is supposed to generate. >> i guess so, but, nick, when you listen to what mike pence also said on fox just this week from the campaign trail, he said, let's be clear, it wasn't that they asked for a pause, the president specifically asked me and his gaggle of crack pot lawyers asked me to literally reject votes. so? >> so that's a crime. i mean, there's no question about it. i mean, mike pence i

that's presumably from pence, a reference from pence's notes, those are his notes, unless somebody rebutts-- we know that's it. in page 41 of the indictment, we see trump is in the, quote, outer oval office with aides. the defendant says, see this is what happens when you try to steer elections. people are unhappy. you don't put that in quotes and jack smith is by the book, unless you have it. and we haven't heard about a white house tape system or someone in the room. mr. mark meadows is on a very short list of those type of individuals. we will see in the weeks ahead, especially when it goes to trial, who is going to substantiate that. clearly, they think they have it. >> kristy, caught my ear, a short statement yesterday after the indictment was released and he said that he's going to continue the investigation. right? it made it clear that even though the only person being indicted here didn't mean that this was over. do you think, potential culpability from some of the five that we know, maybe there's a sixth. who knows? >> yes. i -- there is a lot of evidence here, particularly, with

if anything, they are just hoping that by mike pence being out there, mike pence has become a very unpopular figure in the republican party, and the extent that their primary objective is to try to win this in the court of public opinion, perhaps this sort of says, look, at the highest levels don't trump own lieutenants were not being loyal to him, or taking seriously his grievances about the election. what i think so much of this falls apart, and why i'm so frustrated every time this gets called the january six indictment, is that when you go to the argument about free speech, a lot of voters including a ton of republican voters will say you should be allowed to complain that you feel like the election was stolen from you. that should be fine. and what you can't do, and what the indictment is really about, is that you cannot call up the secretary of state of georgia and say finally 11,780 votes. that is not, hey will you look into something for me? that is a direct ask and goes beyond put goal. >> i would never smirk at christian, -- >> not at her, or just out of delight. >> i think that on

he's never criticized pence before because pence is like 2%.ink because as we now know trump said he's just too honest. pence is going to get in that trial, he's going to put his hand on a bible. for mike pence it won't be the first time. i think 9 only two times trump ever touched a bible was when he was sworn in. but pence is going to tell the truth. i think that's why he's attacking him. >> that's an important point. that tweet of his "if you come after me, i'm coming after you," that's a direct call to violence. and that's trump saying the next 15 months, signaling to his supporters to get violent. and they will. >> keep in mind after the search of mar-a-lago a deranged man on the fringes of the far right, perhaps inspired by mr. trump or other figures, attacked the fbi office in cincinnati. and wound p losing his life because he was trying to murder fbi agents. he was so upset about the raid on mar-a-lago. but i did the math. if only .001% of trump supporters, 1/1000 of a percent, it's still 74,000 people. that's a sellout at an nfl game.

pence rejected the scheme. that's why they weren't counted. >> absolutely. and that's how -- of course! and that's how the political process works. but there was defrauding -- >> no, it doesn't. >> there was no trickery, there was no deceit. >> because if mike pence had said "yes," that's exactly what would have happened. >> no. no, because thank with freedom of the press zp-- >> i don't want to go down -- >> no, you asked me a question and i hope you can let me finish, because the government alleges deceit or trickery, and all of this played out in the open. it's all free speech. there was a supreme court decision which is right on point that says when you're exercising free speech, you're not engaging in a fraud on the government. and that's what, unfortunately, most people don't understand. in that context, it's very political -- >> that's just one example of the actions in this indictment. >> absolutely, but you're entitled -- >> this is a long list that we've compiled from the indictment. there are -- it's

a menace for donald trump, because pence is speaking the truth. >> pence on the witness stand. we'll see you it when we see it. it double spring, thank you for your insight tonight. that is our show for this evening. now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> last night at this hour, i gave andrew weissman his toughest question of the day, i think, which is, looking at this from a defense lawyer's perspective, how would you defend donald trump? he couldn't come up with anything. but we will give him a chance during this hour to react to what the trump defense lawyer said today about it. and more importantly tonight, we have speaker nancy pelosi joining us, and i'm not sure where this story would be if she had not appointed that january 6th committee. >> so true. this begins with that very difficult and somewhat controversial decision to move forward without the candidates that kevin mccarthy wanted on that committee, and the work that they did laid the foundation of where we are today. >> i'm really eager to hear how she did it and how s

vice president pence wanted those debated in congress.rump zhad it be debated at the legislature. you had a disagreement there. these disagreements don't lead to criminal charges. one thing that mr. pence has never said is that he thought president trump was acting criminally. indeed, vice president pence is an attorney. if he at any point said or ai thought that mr. trump -- president trump was acting unlawfully or contrary to criminal law, he would have said that. no one ever suggested that. president trump was -- >> he has said that. he said the president asked him to violate the constitution. he said the president asked him to violate the constitution which is another way of saying he asked him to break the law. >> he never said -- no, that's wrong. that's wrong. a technicalat violation of the constitution is not a violation of criminal law. that's just plain wrong. and to say that is contrary to decades of legal statutes. >> let's get out of constitutional. >> let me say one last thing. >> go ahead. >> this>> is a constitutional case

pence of having been in the harvard club. this was on the sidewalk he was with a mutual friend, as i recall it, steve forbes, which might be why when we were introduced briefly, i leaned over and said to mr. pence, did i hear? you're for the gold standard. i'm reluctant to repeat what? mr. pence replied because i hadn't informed him that i was with the newspaper. but it was substantive. several sentences, and i don't think it's a violation of ground rules to disclose that. when i got home that evening, i said to amity, i shook hands today with mike pence. he strikes me as a man to watch and he went on to be governor of indiana, of course, and history calling. one day when mr. pence was vice president, he showed up without a fanfare. plymouth notch, vermont, to see where 100 years ago, almost coolidge was sworn by his own father to the president, joe parchment, when the press told him the coolidge's father, who said you could swear in the president, he said, who said, i couldn't. a few if any of our leading politicians have co

mike pence and _ on the stage tonight. mike pence and chris _ on the stage tonight. on this, they had vivek ramaswamey in the crosshairs as did some of the other candidates, perhaps more than ron desantis, does that mean they see vivek ramaswamey oras mean they see vivek ramaswamey or as the next challenge now, it has moved on from ron desantis?_ it has moved on from ron desantis? ., ., «i ., . desantis? looking at the recent ollin: for desantis? looking at the recent polling for the _ desantis? looking at the recent polling for the past _ desantis? looking at the recent polling for the past few - desantis? looking at the recent polling for the past few days - polling for the past few days and weeks, vivek ramaswamey has been gaining momentum, many would argue if you look at polling in the states of iowa and across the board, you saw that contrast with him on the debate stage tonight, these candidates are looking at the field and looking at who has got momentum and who does not, and it is positioning right now. we saw that play out there we saw the moment governor ch