are aged people who are children people who are a security firm and so in my opinion you know we just have to go back to the basics i know of no code of ethics no court of ethics with christianity judaism. islam buddhist hindu or really just being a moral person that says that it's ok to just ignore him neglect the most vulnerable people in our society only talks about seniors these are people who blazed the past for us young folks these are people who fought in world war two the ones who defeated our country they're the ones who built our country that we could have stayed that year thanks for all you do for us but we're not there for you grandma grandpa i think that's repugnant and so that's that's where i'm coming from and i hope a lot of people agree with me on this point and thing is of course is that it's not just seniors it's the entire middle class right now especially when you look here fact that corporate profits are reaching record highs that corporate executives are having have record bonuses right now while the middle class is shrinking is it really just about getting

these are people who lived up our young people. how could they do what they do when we can't do what we are supposed to do? how do you cut a poll grant? forgive me and allow me an indulgence. 75,000 americans got engineering degrees. 300,000 indians. six hundred thousand chinese people. they are doing what they are supposed to do. reggie bailey, were you mit? what are we supposed to do? what are we supposed to do? i am going to be quiet. >> let me follow up because it is the collective wisdom that it is president obama has offered what the new york times has called an overly generous package of cuts in social programs. what do we say about that? of course the republicans walked away once again. >> holy water. holy water. you know what? let's take our time and talk about the energy we have. i can fix these people. they are not fixable but here is what i want black people to understand. you know it from your ancestors story. no matter who we are or how we are we have triumphed even in the middle of nonsense. let's continue the energy

blazed the pass for us young folks these are people who fought in world war two they're the ones who defeated our country they're the ones who built our country are we going to stay that year thanks for all you do for us but we're not there for you mom dad grandma grandpa i think that's repugnant and so that's what that's where i'm coming from and i hope a lot of people agree with me on this point and the thing is of course is that it's not just seniors it's the entire middle class right now especially when you look at the fact that corporate profits are reaching record highs that corporate executives are having have record bonuses right now while the middle class is shrinking is it really just about getting back to basics or do you think that we're going to need something bigger and we need some type of a social upheaval is the new brzezinski even so. and yesterday that he thinks there might be some type of a social unrest or class warfare to get people to pay attention again i think getting back to basics is getting to something bigger i mean think about a simple idea that amer

maybe as you're arguing might not get used to but some like to call handouts one of the people who rely on it who have who are working overnight shifts and rely on food stamps rely on medicare people who will lose these if this passes right will the reality is the people who really need these programs which they were designed to help will still get them but we have far too many people who are on it but one thing you realize that the wealthiest among us billionaires can still get medicare that can't assist them and they can still get it one that we don't need and they would even say we don't need that you know we don't even my opinions with this one but we don't need to take that for ourselves but they still get it but little things like that there's work all over the place including defense that can be removed and we've got to come to the table and and make those serious changes medicare is one of those programs that need to be revamped then it is another program let me get your reaction your head there says republicans are advocating for the poor talk to me what do you think. shor

and so i don't think it's going to be as bad as, you know, the great depression evidence of people who just never invest in the stock market again. but, you know, hopefully people are going to be a little more responsible about that decision. >> we can only hope. jim carr from the national community reinvestment coalition, communities need the housing market to recover. state and local governments, they're expected to shed more than 100,000 jobs in the third quarter. without the property tax revenues they can't fund operations. communities are facing an uphill battle here if people can't buy homes, jim. >> right. well you're absolutely right. and the problem is not is if the somehow things are leveling out. we're on route to another 2 million foreclosures this year and probably have at least another 2 million in the pipeline on top of that. and so despite the good news that you talked about earlier at the top of the show, the reality of it is that the more likelihood is that home prices are going to continue to slide through the end of this year. one good note is nice, but it doesn't m

sigh -- netherlands that people who cycle to work have more than people who don't. also the environment there are a lot of things you can capitalize because you don't have to invest on electric cars or transit or whatever to reduce the carbon dioxide, because the emissions of bicycle is zero. there is a huge problem in the u.s. by traffic noise. a lot of people are not aware of it but the effects for people being constantly having traffic noise are enormously. also, in the netherlands productivity loss because the effect that, for instance, in amsterdam, so many people cycle means that there will be a lot less congestion. when you have ever visited amsterdam, see all of these people cycle and who think what would happen if all of these trips would have to be made by car, then there would be no more amsterdam economy because no one would be able to move about. there would be one giant traffic jam all day. so the bike is the grease in the amsterdam economy. you have to build less highways, you have to build less parking garage. you put the bike -- use very little spac

hard as this is for me to believe, that people have actually walked out offended and said, "we want our money back." what did they think they were walking into? who knows? i mean, i did the show in baltimore at a wonderful little place, the baltimore theater project, and after the reviews had come out, there were walk-outs, and people said, you know, "we want our money back." and the box office manager was like, "you're the one who came to preaching to the perverted." that's right. "what did you think?" they thought it was a musical? i can't imagine. are you ever tempted, from the stage, to say, "hold on. where are you going?" no, and i know certain artists, like karen finley, does often confront people who walk out and has some sort of discussion with them. i feel like it's people's right to leave. yeah, it's their right to leave. i'm more upset about the narcoleptics that sit in the front row, the people who seem to-- sometimes i suspect that it's a condition of their parole. it was, like, either 90 days in jail or performance art. [laughs] and it's got to undermine your confidence, as somebody who intends to provoke, to have somebody actually

people who lived on

they are the elders or the people who have the most knowledge and who are filled with wisdom. no ceremonies. remember, remember memory, you know? and so there are actually places where people live. i would say my idea of an encampment in the 70s at wounded knee or something like that. i am that short -- not sure what you mean by encampment in as a. >> host: next call from new york. >> caller: hi, linda. we have a problem with taxation in new york. our governors have said if we could only get our hands on indian cigarette money we could close our tax gap. i was wondering if your nation has the same problem. with your state trying to tax you on sovereign money? >> guest: not that i know of but don't pay much attention to cigarette tax. oklahoma has a large population of native people. that is one of the ways we educate and pay for education and make a living to build our health clinics. i don't think we have the same problem you might have in new york. >> host: albany, oregon. go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: i have heard you speak a couple times at oregon state

couldn't afford to go to college people who need health care for our families people who don't have jobs they send us to do the fighting for them the reality is the majority of people in the united states are opposed to the wars in iraq and afghanistan inside the military as well and with this government is going to continue sending us to fight and die in these wars that are not in our interest and really it's up to us to stop them and that was stephen lineman host of the progressive radio news hour as well as iraq war veteran and political activist i call prysner. switching gears now really switching gears it is a sad day first and a happy day for others glenn beck wrapped up his last show on fox news today so what does that mean for fox and for back himself and also for the americans who have been tuning in for the last two years artie's honest report. cleaned petri got a messenger of enlightenment i'm sorry. i just love my country. but i fear for. the cheers paranoia and up thirty gone too rotten to swallow when i see you know nine eleven victim family on television or whatever i

if that was the situation in copenhagen, i think less than half the people who by now would bike. r people have to have wider bikes or folding bike. but having a heavy bike in a two-room apartment is very detrimental. i think that needs to be addressed in at san francisco. >> problems of bicycles and space needs. at least they're not having to carry their up cars up to their apartments. how you deal with that in copenhagen? >> i think people just throw their bicycle against the wall where they live normally. but it is a responsibility for the city. that is why we have parking spaces were people live and work and shop. -- where people live and work and shop. that is a discussion every time, what is adequate? >> in the netherlands, if you want to have a permit to build a house, it is mandatory that there is a place to park your bike. in rotterdam, they have the same situation. there, they put bicycle boxes on the street. the people who do not have space to park their by -- park their bike in the house, they can put their plight on the lockable shelters on the streets. in the netherla

for the people who have not had somebody to fight for them, she was the voice of reason for people who did not have a voice, and i say today, to everyone who made this possible, the fight is not over. we still have to continue the good fight. i am an iraqi veteran. a couple of years ago, myself, i was homeless. now, i am getting help. we have an issue going on in the city dealing with mental health. we have to address this. if each and every person -- yes, ma'am? >> madea is my grandmother. >> yes, so we have to deal with this, this mental health. so it is good to see you. we talked before, but everybody here that made this project happen, let's continue to do the good work and keep up the good fight. thank you. [applause] >> i'm eloise's granddaughter. i want to say thank you. my grandmother is not able to make it, i guess you all know, but she said her best wishes. thank you. [applause] >> i would just like to thank you for coming out to the celebration. a lot of people ask me when i am working -- i do work on the san francisco cable cars. come out and ride if you have time. anyway,

i think the people who should be thanked are the hard work and staff of this office. let me just stop here for a second and see if we have any questions. >> [inaudible] >> great question. this year, we went in with a conservative number, given the fact that we thought the market was really not in a very good place. we also anticipated that we were going to spend almost all of our time doing appeals. part of it is as we were doing appeals, we looked at what types of revenue we were leaving on the table. about halfway through, i redirected the office and said even if it means pushing off some of the appeals to next year, we have to make sure we're bringing this money for the city budget. part of it was a slight redirection of staff this year and also the fact that there was actually more stuff anticipated in back -- in that. >> [inaudible] >> the way it goes is just what any city and county, with the county brings in money, part of it will go into all the different cities, and part of it goes to the state. we get roughly about 57% of the money, and the rest goes to the

we have people who look at everybody's facebook page or follow people who tweet. and a politician now can say, we just passed this fabulous bill, isn't that great. or i just voted for this because i care about you. they don't have to have an interview with us. within seconds -- chris: if you miss a news program, you say, go to -- you say i want to see it again, there it is on facebook. >> people who used to be the referees, the front page editors of "the new york times" or "washington post" are out of the game. kerry's people said this isn't catching on. chris: no more editors or fillers, it's completely democratic journalism, meaning anyone can do it. coming up, how a blogger who works out of his house broke the monica lewinsky story. it's not just a few big rerters to worry about anymore. how modern news coverage has changed politics itself. chris: welcome back. we're talking about how new media changed politics. it used to be a few reporters from a few big players were all a national politician had to worry about. you know, the boys on the bus. the turning poin

and the people who support the i.m.f. the terrorists as i mentioned like eric cantor they are helping to facilitate the thieving of that twenty four hundred tons of gold because that is meaningful they need that gold because of course is the i.m.f. going to get the airport landing fees from naples or sicily. now. as divers continue to retrieve bodies from the volga river the number of victims after the pleasure cruises sinking on sunday has risen to one hundred thirteen the vessels captain was also among the dead his body reportedly found on the bridge meanwhile more details emerge of procedural violations that could have contributed to the tragedy his crew reportedly understated the passengers on board to obtain permission from river controllers to set sail claiming the number to be just twenty instead of two hundred russia's prime minister putin has visited and paid tribute to the rescue operation and said that those whose negligence greed led to the disaster must be punished what is taught in reports on how the investi

let's listen. >> i think there are some people who are pretending not to understand it. who think there's leverage for them in threatening a default. i don't understand it as negotiating positions. think about it. you're going say, i'm going to read you the 14th amendment. >> we'll stipulate i. want to read this one thing. >> it's paper clipped in his -- >> the validity of the public debt of the united states authorized by law including debts incurred for bounties in services in suppressing insurrection ever rebellion, the important thing, shall not be questioned. >> there you go. thank you for joining us from the nation there. i read your op-ed in the paper. powerful stuff. take a couple of minutes and explain for those who don't know about this amendment in the constitution about the president's authority in this situation? >> interesting that secretary geithner is carrying this around. this is a last resort, but it is the fourth section of the 14th amendment passed in the wake of the civil law, and it was -- enacted for many reasons but in the public debt arena, that t

these in heilman programs actually affect who that money trickles down to these are people who maybe you're right maybe in the long term i don't think this is a totally invalid argument but in the long term if you have people stop relying on the government maybe it will make them more apt to go out and do stuff some people for themselves but the fact is this is also a right now problem as to what happens you know with these programs and with this money if these people thought getting these checks in the mail there could be some serious issues i mean in a way this is shock therapy a treatment that you know doesn't kill you but it's very painful so maybe you could you can make the analogy to rehab yes you know if you stop taking drugs and go through it all there is some pain there but there's a lot of reward as a result the problem is if you keep doing drugs because you don't want rehab you end up dying of an overdose and that's what's going to happen to the u.s. economy yes it's unfortunate but a lot of people revise on promises from politicians. that can't be kept but the probl

from people who are not working right now. >> my name is luke. i worked as a generalist for seven years. currently -- journalist for seven years. currently, i worke with photographs. it is really all about the business model. patch believe they can make money based on advertising. other local newspapers believe advertising is not enough to support journalism. i am interested in your thoughts on that, brian. and pat, i know that you are looking for 20, 30 times returns. >> what is that? >> i put in $1 million and i get $10 million out. >> we do not know what that is an public radio. [laughter] >> ok, thank you. i would like to ask our guests to keep the questions short and sweet. we have a lot of questions. >> patch is built on ad revenue, but not in the -- it is not just banner ads. it is about serving the community. there is a business community as well. small business owners who knew to be served, the sorts of at products that benefit them. all of these are good, from non profit, to different models. you mean that variety. i got an e-mail from

as we approached it was hard to distinguish in the dark water of people who were alive from the rubble that was floating around and people were in panic when we rescued them in a state of shock but some suffering from other traumas they were all covered in oil fuel that was leaking from the sunken ship it was a terrifying picture i have to say. because out to know the arabella also added his own views to those of those two other captains he was in the vicinity as they were and he gave his own views on the public fury and the experts saying well maybe it was they didn't do such an awful thing let's hear what he had to say about that. we were approaching the position of the tragedy we're almost at the same time as it would be cargo ship i don't know why he didn't stop maybe try to handle it but the inertia of heavy cargo wouldn't let him but as we approached the side it only hampered the rescue operation i asked him to proceed and not waste time so there's very mixed feelings now about the role of these two ships the rescue operation will shortly if they can recover the rest of these bod

the prisons are pios tent city is filled with nonviolent but by and large blue collar criminals people who got smoking pot or stealing a slurpee at seven eleven yet today you can count on one hand the number of banks who were doing time for their role in stealing trillions of dollars in the middle class during the financial meltdown and even if they hammer does for and some of these banks are in the future don't expect them to be doing time in our pios tensity prison. this is considered going to show up in our view we really do have a two tiered criminal justice system in the united states which people by and large need to get out get away with their crimes or they go to friendly places kind of mansions and poor people by and large good pretty awful prisons that are getting more and more awful by the day as the private christian industry is out there building prisons and paying guards lousy and frying to move as many people through as possible but i can promise you the second we do start taking a hard line on corporate crime especially against c.e.o.'s who hire those illegal immigrants to

you know illegal that seems to generate passion response from people who use it you just look at big point at first glance on automatically assume that because some people are using it for bad things and therefore the currency is only used totally for bad things let me cut in there first i'm hearing give some background little bit background so another words let's start from the beginning in terms of bitcoin it's a digital currency it's a decentralized currency in that there is no central authority like a central bank and it's also an encrypted currency which gives a remarkable benefits the ones that you'd expect and want from a currency if you're looking to conduct business outside of the surveillance of let's say corrupt federal employees or governments but on the same token obviously just like cash it can be used for nefarious and as well but let me talk about a word that is used. two words actually one is called disruptive and another d word this intermediation so in terms of disruptive disinter mediation we've seen p.d.p. software development in the projects like apache software

the only people who are not covered are people who have spousal coverage through their marriage. he feels it is a moral obligation to provide us with health care coverage, and it is part of his business plan. small business owners, do not give me this. it is doable. he also provides massage for us every two weeks, so that we do not get carpal tunnel syndrome because we are mostly a computer-based business. are we happy? are we motivated? are we productive? you bet your bippy, we are. i will conclude with a quotation from martin luther king, a remark he made in connection with the civil rights laws that were passed in the mid-1960's. he said, "these lots will not change hearts, but they will change behavior, and perhaps sometimes, hearts will follow -- these laws will not change hearts." so i beg business owners, please pay

we are mainly preaching for people who like our message, but i hardly meet people -- the opposition. i don't know, maybe there are some people who are against too much like accessibility in the room here, but up until now, we have not met them. >> back in my town, i meet them very often. one of the most, one of the best arguments concerns air quality and the problem of noise. also, the numbers of young families not wanting to have their kids growing up in town and moving out. they're really looking at what arguments can you put forward to say we cannot continue the way that things are going. >> think in copenhagen, the status of the car has changed. people are not used to having cars anymore. they sometimes use a car and go to a car sharing club or something. it is socially acceptable to cycle. 30, 40 years ago, you would maybe be seen as a loser if he came on a bicycle, -- if you came on a bicycle, but now it is for everybody. everyone is cycling. it is not, the former generation in the 60's, denmark, they could afford to buy a car and they really enjoyed it. they wanted to show it,

are elderly people who are urban or people who are students college students because that's the target of these laws well i think the target of these laws is to make it so that you have a secure voting place and you go do your own idea in your vote i vote in d.c. i've never been asked for and i don't but there is no voter fraud well you don't know that it's in part it's very hard to find voter for oh it's very high so it's quite easy oh no no no i have this argument not no no no look the way voted for look you're talking to somebody who registered over five hundred thousand people during the reagan administration you can find voter fraud because people who work at voting polls report any potential for usually to the city clerk then reports it to the secretary of state it is not difficult to find voter fraud this is suppression right now the in west in west concent seventy one thousand african-american men are disenfranchised because of a single stroke of the pin by their governor i proposed on my show today that there ought to be a mark in from milwaukee to madison wisconsin sym

who rick perry invited to come to his event. or maybe to his own pac, which is advertising it as a rick perry event. but now that more people are looking at him, now, supposedly it's not rick perry's event anymore. he might stop by. was he invited? for reference, just to be clear about who rick perry is trying so desperately to get out of bed with in time to announce he is running for president, this is the group with which he is running this prayer event. this is not just an endorser. this is the national spokesman for the group with which perry is running this event. that perry is now trying to disown. >> i'm not going to say anything i am not convinced is true. homosexual soldiers have no limit to savagery they would inflict in whoever hitler sent them off. he surrounded himself, all of the brown shirts, were male homosexuals. this is going to be a pogrom, perpetrated by the homosexual lobby. the homosexuals cannot reproduce. so they have to recruit. it's the only way to swell their numbers. counterfeit origins, alternative origins to christianity, have no first amendment right to the free exercise of religion. permits i

i am wondering, i am not sure how much a european have met with people who are very resistant, thinking it is like socialism, people just want to take over the streets and will not be room for cars and we will go slower and lose jobs. have you been able to convince people? what kind of arguments have you had? >> two weeks ago, a new york, it was 400 years ago that new amsterdam was found at -- was founded. they convinced the general director of the new york port authority to put into action a bike accessibility plan, a bike plan for the more than 200,000 employees of the new york port authority. so they convinced these men that it would be a benefit to invest in bike accessibility. the thing is, i don't know, maybe you could put out an opportunity to meet them. we are mainly preaching for people who like our message, but i hardly meet people -- the opposition. i don't know, maybe there are some people who are against too much like accessibility in the room here, but up until now, we have not met them. >> back in my town, i meet them very often. one of the most, one of the best arguments

lose its relative significance relative to domestic economy, where are the four hundred million people who still have to move to the urban areas going to go? the answer people frequently come up with is there isn't anywhere to go. that was the route into the modern economy. that is wrong. the answer to the question where they are going to go is into the service sectors that are built into the massively expanding urban environment. that is a different route into the modern economy. is that railway -- closes down, then you get what people really fear which is the dual economy structure where they are trapped. probably one of the reasons the chinese are a little cautious about the exchange rate mechanism and probably biased towards the underevaluation even for people outside who are sympathetic to the idea of managing the relative price is uncertainty about the effectiveness and speak of the urban service sector. and i know they have huge fears of having some version of push versus pull in the nation process where people move to the city not because there is opportunity but because in rural a

i would interview people who had just been arrested. at night, i would be filling out visa forms for my chinese clients. today, as i said on the board of the asian american justice center in washington, d.c. off, and the locally, and my day job is helping to supervise immigration attorneys at the immigration clinic at davis. i see a range of clients that have pressing needs. while we all hope and wish for compehensive immigration reform, i have got to tell you from what i've heard the last several months, the question we all have to ask ourselves is at what price? if we get an immigration bill introduced that a serious blow for the spring, i'll tell you right now the provisions i will not be happy with. i know they're going to be in there. you should be aware of these provisions. first of all, the price that the estimated 10 million to 12 million undocumented immigrants in the country may be to pay is they may all be forced to plead guilty to a crime before they can file their application. that is before they actually have to pay a fine

these people have figured out something in american politics that we need to pay attention to those of us who have different views about the economy they took a bunch of old ideas a bunch of preexisting organizations they realigned them rebranded them and really presented them to the american people something new and exciting and suddenly people went chasing out after that but he read it and frankly i think now into it called the sack. i thought to myself well we actually have good ideas for the economy we don't think that we should throw medicare under the bus and so security under the bus and teachers on the bus and veterans under the bus we think we should actually respect those institutions and invest in them and ask the wealthy people to pay their fair share and it turns out the bed the super majority of americans agree that we should have a balanced approach to our budget problems american families don't say we got a budget problem let's start grandma that's not how american families think we say hey listen let's cut back on the non-essential and then let's go have junior go get a paper

and people who are really horribly obese. but he is typical of other people i met in that he -- he was in different religions for a while. sometimes he was trying -- he was a mormon for a little while, or he was sent to a mormon school for some training and then he was back and forth. many people sort of back and forth with different -- different religions until they find -- they come back to their own, to their native religion. and he learned to be a medicine man through a woman, which was pretty unusual. and he is very sought-after. he never advertises. medicine people do not ties what they do. i mean, they're not supposed to, he said. and people come to him, and he invited me to a three-day blessing ceremony, which was really one of the high points of this last decade of work. and i was the only person there who did not speak navajo. and i found that what was so wonderful about it in part was that it was so casual. everyone speaking navajo. there are very specific steps he took to help a man who was very emotionally trouble

and there are some people who don't drink at all thought of. for billing so not even a single drop. of. what kind of people are these your beloved. people thermos salt. or some of our troops time in the us or. europe grant count three cold sort of. general friendly enough sort of of course all of us for peace sort but of course you have some pity for the present wars solve all their own theory coroner in every family kitchen when you why is has not been sort of quietly big shame will. cry will she now sort of prior to iraq really unclear where dish rag like a nation no blood gearing. candles sundance. is flying saucer sundials our mental salt off with inside class wall who probably need fresh air. in our cool so we have only solved all judges in our think tanks only is full of same killers one sort of creative. with that for me i've sort of or the you when i hear you use. to sort that kind but not enough. i would like to stand before god as i am not sort of the sort of hut and this sort of life in this song called freedom here again he used to shank a famous russian poet when we. cre

there are people who come in who need treatment for their heart disease or for their diabetes or their high blood pressure or their cholesterol or their hepatitis b. we actually provide group medical visits and group education classes and meeting people who have similar chronic illnesses as you do really helps you understand that you are not alone in dealing with this. and it validates the experiences that you have and so you learn from each other. >> i think it's very important to try to be in tune with the needs of the community and a lot of our patients have -- a lot of our patients are actually immigrants who have a lot of competing priorities, family issues, child care issues, maybe not being able to find work or finding work and not being insured and health care sometimes isn't the top priority for them. we need to understand that so that we can help them take care of themselves physically and emotionally to deal with all these other things. they also have to be working through with people living longer and living with more chronic conditions i think we're going to see more patie

of people who are behind all this at the x. we call them activists people who are. different motivation it's not money it's not profit most of them they do it's like a protest just like that group that was revealed in the cases against wiki leaks yeah i'm not sure it's yes because i understand this people used to hack into these master card recently apple i was wondering are these people who are idea driven more dangerous just than just hackers at it for money it's a good question and. i might for i'm afraid they would be. more dangerous because they're much more of this people are many of them their way to professional and sometimes with the books where the guys do for my knees are less dangerous than this dude just for fun or like protest and use even more dangerous because they are getting more experienced and the. they cover but the use of new ways to hard to. stop internet services will damage their infrastructure. i am a free there are the will be the. police is for terrorists to employ these forces i am afraid that in the future of cyber terrorism. will kidna

and the people who show up to watch this. and the whole show of people who are there for this. you cannot walk away from this without having been impacted. i want to talk about the war and has said, that these executions have been 7-10 years after the crime and we're not executing the same person. in california, everyone who has been executed has been 20 years after the crime and you are not executing the same person. people do change. from my observation of the victims' family members, and nothing that there is anything that execution can do for them. i think they come there with high hopes that they will somehow feel better, and that they will somehow be able to close this event, and you just -- it just does not happen. these are horrifying crimes. my heart goes out -- out to the victims' families. >> would you say that the instances -- instances of the executions, or any of these meritorious? did you see someone put to death that he thought was innocent? >> not in the cases that i dealt with. the things i oversaw, and guilt or innocence was not a question. in one case, it wa