perlmutter said, i'll help you fix the va, so then perlmutter got sherman and moscowitz involved.away, this one has not only continued but deepened to the point that they managed to stack the leadership of the agency with people who were loyal to them because anyone who didn't get along with them got pushed out or pushed over. >> what expertise do any of these men have, in veteran's issues or running of the va. >> that is the exact question that va officials have been asking themselves for the past years. what business do these guys have telling us what to do with veterans policy. and the answer is they have the president's ear. that's what matters. >> if the bureaucracy resists the trio's wishes, perlmutter has a powerful ally, the president of the united states. what's the extent of their relationship. >> they talk on the phone regularly, and they'll have dinner when trump is down in mar-a-lago, and whenever something veterans related comes to trump's attention the first one he's going to call is perlmutter. everyone knows that, so no one wants to pick that fight. they know they

perlmutter, bruce moskowitz, a doctor, and marc sherman, a lawyer. none of the three have served in the u.s. military or government, but they have outsize influencea ov v.a. decisions, according to the story written by propublica reporter isaac arnsdorf, who joins us in the studio. also here, melissa bryant, a former army intelligence officer and the chief policy officer of the iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. thank you to your both. >> thank you. >> schifrin: isaac, let me start with you. what has been the relationship between these three men and the rall? ove >> you basically have thee these guys down in mar-a-lago who for the past year and a half have been acting as a shaipdow leaderor the department of veterans and foign affairs and weighing in on all manner of personnel decision despite officially having no role in government, never having served in the militaryr government previously, and not really having any direct experience that's relevant to ths. they've been kind of hovering over the officials who are actually in the government a

last year there was a point where perlmutter weighed in on the side of the private care. his idea was basically tbring private providers into the v. a. to have a look around and see what services they thought should be outsourced to providers like themselves, an that obviously is a conflict re in. >> schifrin: explain that more. what is wrong with that? some people believe there should be more privatization in the vao what's with people arguing for more privatization? >> this because big part of president trump's campaign, but most veterans oppose that.e and jor veterans groups oppose that, because their view is that they get betr care in the va and it would be much more expensive and serve vetrsans to have them out in the private sector. >> schifrin: melissa bryant, let me turn to you. i want to ask about your notion of pri tvatization, buthis notion of outside influence from the outside and formal advisers d also turmoil at the top of the veterans affairs, does tat influence the care? >> it absolutely does. what we see from the vetorans serviceanizations and my colleagu

oh yes last year perlmutter and the v.a. wanted to conduct a very important public awareness campaign about veteran suicide so they decided to promote it by ringing the closing bell at the new york stock exchange while handing out marbles swag bags and making sure that captain america and spiderman made an appearance look thank you with thank you jon i mean now you may say conflict of interest but i say conflict of oa how interested in. ok that was ethically awful to put it lightly but have these is done anything else more directly nefarious than just the no no. no no. no no. i mean sure our v.a. leaders who are at odds with the moral law go crowd were pushed out or passed over included where the secretary deputy secretary chief of staff acting undersecretary for health deputy undersecretary for health chief information officer and the director of electronic health records modernization but it was only that. was a key personnel position see these unaccountable shadowy figures have been able to hold the v.a. to their will and

oh yes last year perlmutter and the v.a. wanted to conduct a very important public awareness campaign about veteran suicide so they decided to promote it by ringing the closing bell at the new york stock exchange while handing out marbles swag bags and making sure that captain america and spiderman made an appearance look at thier thank you jon i mean now you may say conflict of interest but i say conflict of o.o. how insurance is. ok there was ethically awful to put it lightly but have these has done anything else more directly nefarious than just the no no. no no. no no. i mean sure our v.a. leaders who are at odds with the moral lago crowd were pushed out or passed over included where the secretary deputy secretary chief of staff acting undersecretary for health deputy undersecretary for l. chief information officer and the director of electronic health records modernization but it was only that. was a key personnel physicians see these unaccountable shadowy figures have been able to hold the v.a. to their will. they've b

yet because they are friends there is ike perlmutter. bruce moskowitz and wealthy attorney marc sherman. none of them were veterans, none of them elected. and none of them confirmed. yet because they are friends with trump, and pay dues to his private club, they have been allowed to run the department. take us through the details of this absolutely insane example i am joined by isaac. this is one of the nuttiest stories of the trump era i have read. how involved really are these three gentlemen in overseeing the va? >> they are involved with plans to be about a meeting at mar-a-lago all about the va. so the va secretary wasn't even going to the meeting at mar-a-lago about the va. it seemed odd to me. except it won't. we now know about the true rulers of the va. there is ike perlmutter. bruce moskowitz and wealthy attorney marc sherman. none of them were veterans, none of them elected. and none of them confirmed. yet because they are friends with trump, and pay dues to his private club, they have been allowed to run the department. take u

we're talking about ike perlmutter, a big mucky muck at marvel entertainment. also bruce moskowitz, a palm beach doctor. >> good of you to push that out there. >> "the avengers" may be influencing v.a. policy. and mark sherman, a lawyer also. they're influencing policy at mar-a-lago. they have no official position here. what goes on? >> well, whether it's mar-a-lago or bedminster or aspects of trump tower, what you have is this unofficial shadow government around donald trump which is what a lot of us who covered the campaign thought was a possibility when he got elected. what his advisers have tried to do is down play the influence of these folks, these are just people he sees on the weekend, ike pearl mutter is just a friend whose influence we like to see. no. that was incredibly good reporting by propublica. what you saw was they were running it. this wasn't just input from time to time when the president is down in florida. there was outsourcing secretly a government function to a group of privatized folks, lawyers, a filmmaker and producer. one lawyer who

. >> that was president trump announced that his friend, ike perlmutter.on va from mar-a-lago. mar-a-lago crowd spoke with va officials daily reviewing all manner of policy and personnel decisions. officials traveled to mar-a-lago at taxpayer expense to hear their view. back here with the roundtable. this is people who are not going through any kind of confirmation exerting some policy role. taking place at the private business the president owns. taxpayer. >> a lot of this speaks to chief concerns that you have in the administration. close long standing ties with many of these billionaires. the question is does that get to overlap. you know, or can be spoken to by the american people. that seems fairly undemocratic, but this is part of what democrats are trying to do in painting this administration as people who are grifters and only about their fellow elite. >> it is interesting too, nick, the question is how many people are going to notice a story like this. i'm thinking about ten years ago a previous administration, there was a va scandal and it got co

there is ike perlmutter. bruce moskowitz and wealthy attorney marc sherman. none of them were veterans, none of them elected. and none of them confirmed. yet because they are friends with trump, and pay dues to his private club, they have been allowed to run the department. take us through the details of this absolutely insane example i am joined by isaac. this is one of the nuttiest stories of the trump era i have read. how involved really are these three gentlemen in overseeing the va? >> they are involved with everything. they speak with va officials every day on the phone. they have a hand in all manner of policy and personnel decisions that have been coming out of the va for the past year and a half. >> every day? >> as often as every day or multip multiple times a day. >> this is like how everything about the policy for the largest health care system in the united states. >> yeah. this is like how much health care for veterans should be provided by the government run va system versus how much should be done by private doctors. what should the va do to m

if the bureaucracy resists the trio's wishes, perlmutter and others involved in the informal group, a powerful ally, the president of the united states. you serve on that veterans affairs committee as i said. were you aware of this arrangement? >> of course not. and this is yet another astounding revelation that the president trump does not abide by any kind of ethical limitations and i find it astounding for an agency there to serve the needs and provide the programs so that the veterans earned and deserved, astounding to me that this group of totally unaccountable, unelected and behind the scenes people can exert this kind of influence. but they obviously have the protection of the president. this is why the president is not above the law but he's certainly acting as though he is. so i would hope that the veterans affairs committee on which i sit will conduct some hearings. i'll call -- i'd like for that to happen so we can find out exactly what kind of influence is being exerted by these people who are accountable to nobody. >> hey, senator, thank you so much for joining us. >> tha