get the clues that will enable you to -- >> what does it matter what the brazilians are doing at petrograd esther mark -- at petrobras? you might be going after terrorists, that what are our interest -- >> it is out of control. bei agree there needs to control over the system. there does need to be accountability. >> is there enough control? >> what i do believe is they are acting according to law. i do believe on the other hand, given the public anxiety aroused by this that we do need to have actually a body like the information security committee actually do a review. >> is that a good thing? >> i'm sorry -- [all talking at once] law. is not under the it is acting beyond the law at this point. that is a crucial idea. and the idea that the intelligence services have said toneed all the raw data search through is absurd. if you have a clue, then you have access to track something. gordonas something in carrera's film that there has been a deliberate undermining of encryption. this is not new. not new -- look, there is a tension between the need for security and we need to intercept communi