sigma phi epsilon replaced it with the balanced man program several decades ago to foster leadership and personal growth. so nate, this is credited to contributing to higher gpas, and lower legal costs for the fraternity. and is it enough. >> the balanced man program is a great program, and a great example of a national office determining what they value and how that should be lived out in the new member experience and just the general membership experience in general. i think their goal there is to eliminate power dynamics in groups, and i applaud it. but it's still transitioning. chapters are still figuring out how to make it work themselves and there's still time. but like we said before, it has to have the buy-in and the chapter alumni from the chapter so it comes down from the national office. >> it doesn't seem that there has been any significant action taken on these issues, even though there has been much wrangling for decades, and why do you think that is? >> it has been very difficult to get a hazing law passed that doesn't have a lot of compromise, and in several stays, th