so andy and phil pearlstein. now, phil pearlstein went to carnegie mellon with andy and when they -- when phillip and dorothy came tneo w york first and andy lived on their floor for a considerable period of time while he's making shoe ads and stuff. so i'm looking at everybody in there and i said "wow, if this plane went down it would pretty much wipe out the art world as we know it." >> rose: and phillip, who was competitive with andy said "yeah and the daily news would say "andy warhol and others." (laughter) but that was how important it was. it would have been andy warhol and others. jasper johns, a lot of people can argue is a more significant artist, but he wouldn't be the top -- >> rose: so this is about fame in america? >> it's about crossing over. he had crossover appeal. >> what was the reaction when you pioneered what you were doing in terms of taking photographs and painting for photographs. >> you mentioned photography. it's hard to remember, especially if you're as young as these guys but there was