cipollone and philbin were trump's designated to deal with the archives. it was the archives that first raised the issue of missing documents and refred it to the doj. so cipollone and philbin were of interest because of their interaction with the archives and they might have had insight on what was taken to mar-a-lago. this comes as the court fight for even more information about the search is looming. the legal fight to release more information on last week's mar-a-lago search is coming to a cross roads. the justice department is seeking to keep secret certain details prosecutors say would otherwise reveal highly sensitive information about witnesses, specific investigative techniques, and it would serve as a road map to the government's ongoing investigation. the judge announcing today he will hear arguments thursday and decide whether to release those details. all part of an affidavit that lays out why investigators believed they had probable cause to obtain this search warrant to search trump's mar-a-lago estate and take away classified documents. cnn

obviously cipollone and philbin know a lot. they were trump's point men for dealing with the national archives. investigators, of course, asked questions about how 15 boxes of teeshls ended up at mar-a-lago even after, even after they said they returned everything. team trump did. according to "the new york times" philbin had been working to return all the documents since the national archives realized any of them were missing. it was trump, though, who resisted. several advisers telling "the times" that trump would say, quote, it's not theirs, it's mine. we know from the warrant and the receipt of what the fbi took from mar-a-lago that they did find highly classified, in fact, some with the most highly classified designation, at mar-a-lago. it's significant the two are involved in the doj probe into the mar-a-lago documents. this comes in addition to the fact that they have been subpoenaed by a federal grand jury, again doj investigation, about the january 6th attack. cipollone and philbin have also testified behind closed doo

philbin was interviewed in the spring. it was unclear when mr. cipollone was interviewed. that means that attorney general merrick garland definitely had the information from the fbi interview when patrick philbin which was conducted in the spring all the attorney general was considering to seek a search warrant for donald trump's home. the wall street journal said more like deliberated for weeks over whether to approve the application for a warrant to search former president donald trump's florida home, people familiar with the matter said. the decision had been the subject of weeks of meetings between senior justice department and fbi officials. now that we know that deputy white house counsel patrick philbin definitely spoke with the fbi during that period when merrick garland was considering a search warrant, and the white house counsel pat cipollone might also have spoken to the fbi during that same period, it strengthens our understanding of why attorney general merrick garland appeared so very confident when he said last week that the decision to seek the search war

cipollone and philbin were in the white house counsel office.itself and philbin was a deputy to him. after the presidency they became liaisons to donald trump to the national archives dealing with his presidential records. whenever this was happening, this was around the time earlier this year where the investigation was really robust, there were a lot of things that investigators were doing. they were interviewing witnesses such as them, they were subpoenaing the documents to try to get them back. "the new york times" has said that philbin and cipollone were trying to help get those documents retrieved for the national archives. we also know from "the new york times" reporting which first broke this story that the justice department was subpoenaing surveillance footage and on that surveillance footage at mar-a-lago saw something that concerned them that then precipitated this search ultimately this month. all of this put together, all of this, would be outlined in that secret affidavit that is in the court record that backed up the probable cau

you have pat philbin here. talk us to about what he knows about the january 6th committee. >> pat philbin would have access to the same information that pat cipollone had. the key difference here between them is we've heard from pat cipollone, at least portions of his testimony played publicly via video from the january 6th committee. the committee has not heard from him so we don't know his unique take on things or what he might have had access to that mr. soapy didn't. they were at the hip and in agreement with most of the actions within the trump white house. the two of them often pushed back on ideas from john eastman and sydney powell like seizing voting machines and the idea of sending a false letter to georgia from the justice department or even meddling in the justice department. both of them spoke out against those plans from the team crazy, as it's been called, but yes. i do think that the two of them going in potentially opens up a new chapter in the justice department's investigation, in terms of ho

cnn has confirmed the fbi spoke to both pat cipollone and patrick philbin earlier this year. cipollone and philbin were top lawyers in the white house but when the administration ended they became among the central people appointed to handle trump's interactions with the national archives and the work of his administration when they needed to turn over federal records that were no longer his since he became a private citizen. in the spring, the criminal investigation became very active leading to fbi interviews just like these ones of cipollone and philbin and others and investigators were subpoenaing to get back the presidential records and we now know that they were subpoenaing surveillance videos of mar-a-lago, too. the "new york times" reported that something on the surveillance footage around a storage room at mar-a-lago caught investigators' attention, even alarmed them. so all of this new information, this is all becoming part of the investigative work that then led the justice department to go into court and ask to be able to do that unprecedented search last week and

sources are telling us that patrick philbin has been subpoenaed by the grand jury investigating januaryrked under white house counsel pat cipollone who himself was just subpoenaed by the grand jury. both men were there, key witnesses for the trump's attempt to subvert the 2020 election. cara skinnel broke the story and what more can you tell about these subpoenas? the subpoenas to the former white house counsel pat sip loany and patrick philbin are seeking documents in their testimony before a federal grand jury. this is certainly another escalation of the department of justice investigations. they had previously called that we know of according to sources, mike pence and two of his top aides, mark short who is his chief of staff and greg jacob, his counsel and interestingly for both, these d ins have the question of executive privilege looming around it and as we've reported the justice department is preparing for a court fight on this, but certainly going to the highest ranking members of the trump administration, pat cipollone and patrick philbin. they're zeroing in on the actions wi

nick, pat cipollone and pat philbin interviewed. would that just be standard procedure, an investigation like that, given they were the ones representing the white house to the national archives? >> oh, absolutely. i think they would play prominently in the affidavit in support of the search warrant. they know what the procedures were. they know what trump was told. they know what other government employees in the white house were told. they set up the procedures. that is absolutely critical in terms of setting up the probable cause that was needed in that affidavit. >> but, nick, how free as attorneys would they be to talk to the fbi? >> well, i guess the question is whether or not they felt constrained not to reveal their conversations with donald trump because of executive privilege. on the other hand, i don't really think executive privilege applies here. what the government would really be interested in is not so much what trump said but what the lawyers said to donald trump. that is, what instructions was he given with respect

just tell me about the interviews of philbin and cipollone. what does it mean?r of course? >> well, it's not a matter of course the department of justice interviews former white house counsel, but it is to be expected here, and there's a reason it would be those two people who were in the white house counsel, because they were two of seven people who were selected by president trump on january 19th of 2021, just shortly before he left office, to be his representatives in terms of collecting and dealing with presidential records. so, those would be the natural people to speak with. in fact, i would imagine if they spoke to those two people, they tried to speak to all seven, so i think that is important, and one of the things that's reported is that patrick philbin, who, by all accounts, is a law-abiding kind of guy, said, i tried to get these documents back, but the president resisted. so, he could be providing quite damaging testimony, and then the final piece is, it appears that all seven of these people were replaced just recently in june of 2022 with john sol

let's look then at patrick philbin, deputy white house counsel, a point was made yesterday that for him and for cipollone, the grand jury situation different from january 6th, and they can't claim as broad an executive privilege here to refuse to answer questions. i wonder do you agree with that? i know it is going to go to court. it is go to be fought out. do you agree with that and do you think they'll be compelled to testify to some of those issues? >> i believe that grand jury subpoenas carry more weight and courts tend to give more deference to the criminal grand jury subpoena. there will be an executive privilege argument here. we saw cipollone in front of the committee in his videotaped deposition a couple of times he said i'm not going to answer that, i'm going to cite executive privilege. but it appears from our reporting that doj is not going to accept that, they're not going to accept his assertions of privilege, and they're going to go into courts. now, the upside for doj is if they win, and i do think they will win, i agree with renato that they have a stronger case to make

jeff, just how bad could testimony from pat cipollone and pat philbin, how bad could that be for the >> one thing we learned from cassidy hutchinson's testimony and at least part of cipollone's testimony himself is that no one in the white house was closer to the president on the subject of what was appropriate to do in the period on january 6th and leading up to it, the fake electors scheme, the insurrection at the capitol. so if cipollone actually is forced to testify about his conversations with trump, then it could be very bad. but legally, that's going to be a tough road for the justice department to hoe. >> shan, philbin and cipollone both witnessed trump's actions in the final days of his presidency as jeff alluded to there. they were right there in the thick of it. how essential could their information be to this investigation? >> oh, i agree with jeff. it's very, very critical. i mean the justice department is a little bit late to the dance here. but the good news is they founding the correct dance hall. so these are the right people, these are the right people to be talking

ken, pat cipollone, pat philbin. were interviewed and how they were interviewed. >> we haven't confirmed reporting but we have no reason to doubt it. what it suggests is the justice department is trying to learn more about how those documents got to mar-a-lago and what was the process in the final days of the white house as donald trump was moving his material out? we have a lot of reporting on that that suggests it was a chaotic process and that, by the way, for months and years before that, donald trump had a pen chance for grabbing and holding on to highly classified documents. john bolton told us it was common place. it was such a problem that they didn't want to bring in sensitive photos and things like that. it looks like what doj is trying to determine, was there any process around making sure the classified material got back to where it was supposed to be? apparently in some cases not. it ended up in boxes that were transferred to mar-a-lago. >> chuck rosenberg, i want to read an except from the reporting in

and that is the fbi has been in communication and had interviewed both pat cipollone and patrick philbinhey, we should note, were designated by former president trump shortly before he left office to handle all of his archives. what do you make of the fact that we now nomoknow months ago fbi was reaching out to them in an attempt to get some of the classified materials back? >> it is starting to look like there was a long effort to have voluntary cooperation on the return of these documents. many contacts between the fbi and probably the department of justice, and the former president's staff, to get these things back without the use of a warrant or a search warrant of the president's residence. so i think that's all that that tells us. i find it also to be interesting that trump traditionally tends to blame other people, and we had some indications that he early in this investigation was indicating that maybe he wasn't aware of all of the things that were in the boxes that were taken to mar-a-lago. so what they would be doing by interviewing cipollone and others is to kind of take them

cnn has learned the fbi interviewed two former white house lawyers, pat cipollone and patrick philbine executing the search warrant on the former president's home, and it turns out that they were among a group of seven aides appointed by president trump in one of his last actions as president to handle his presidential documents. i'm joined now by former fbi deputy director andrew mccabe and elliot williams. great to have you here. if pat cipollone and patrick philbin were tasked with being in charge of the presidential records and the classified documents, aren't they in trouble today? >> you know, they may not be in trouble today because they may have been doing their jobs and attempting to advise their colleagues to not break the law, right? and so they can provide a tremendous amount of very valuable information as to how documents were stored there, who did what, who saw what. i don't think they're in trouble just yet. >> in terms of who saw what, maggie haberman reports that investigators obtained surveillance footage of the hallway outside of the storage room at mar-a-lago and

and patrick philbin's role really was the middle man. if the archives felt hey we have some documents, but we have some other documents that are missing, they go to philbin and say can you help us out, can you help us get these documents? so he would be very aware of the process. he would be also aware if the president was reluctant to hand over documents. and by the way, he and cipollone would also be aware if there was any kind of general sense that the president's documents can be automatically declassified, if that's what he wanted to do. so they can provide a lot of information. >> it's a very, very sensitive and potentially very significant moment indeed. >> very. >> kasie, now the former supporters are demanding release of the affidavit in connection with the search of the home at mar-a-lago, is that a political rather than a legal tactic that's ongoing right now? >> i think so. if you look at how the former president has handled these kinds of things in the past the way his supporters are willing to back him up basically at every

>> well, between cipollone and win philbin and giuliani, it's been a great day for trump's lawyers.hearing, with rudy giuliani, and then we think we're gonna be looking for as whether giuliani, who's already been identified as a target of the georgia prosecutors, will plead the fifth amendment over and over again, as he stands before that grand jury. so, i think, i'm really looking to see if we find out anything from rudy giuliani. >> peter, probably my number one question, it is been a week since this search, trump has yet to explain why he had any of these documents that are not his. they belong to the u.s. government or what he planned to do with them? what's up with that? >> i think it's exactly right. his response has been to attack the fbi, to attack merrick garland, to attack joe biden. to say it's all about, you know, his enemies. it's a witch hunt. to say that he is entitled to declassify information. he hasn't told us exactly why did he need it or want it in the first place. we don't know. was it to keep it as a souvenir? was it to use, to trade for something else? we don'

philbin did not immediately respond to cnn's request for comment. but let's bring in a state attorney for palm 3w5beach coun. where is this investigation potentially headed? >> good morning, erica. i think this provides further evidence that the department of justice is investigating donald trump. the doj clearly wants to learn what trump said and did on and about january 6. remember, they already interviewed marc short and greg jacob and now they want the two pats. last week we had reports that do skrchlt was trying to block the claims of executive privilege the reason why is to get at trump's communications. why do you want to get to trump's communications? not so you can indict rudy giuliani, although that may happen, but to investigate the former president. also to put water on this, it means that an indictment of donald trump is not imminent. because when you litigate issues of executive privilege, that normally comes at the beginning of an investigation rather than the end. >> how do you see that playing out in terms of executive privilege her

philbin did not immediately respond to cnn's request for comment. but let's brin

we now have talked to philbin in cipollone, who have also been subpoenaed by the grand jury. you've got this filing now on thursday that the judges get to hear arguments. you said he's not gonna see the affidavit. >> first of all, you don't get the stuff in the middle of an investigation, he's gonna get this stuff and he's gonna have to earn it by getting indicted and maybe then he'd get it indebted in discovery. but right now it's a roadmap to the investigations, you don't even have to go there but this is a guy with a history of obstruction. several incidents of the mueller report, you've got him dangling pardons out in public, you've got him trashing on witnesses in public. you've got the recent january 6th. the phone call to the white house whatever he was. . there's some circumstances where you give this stuff up to a potential criminal defendant who's been investigated, certainly wouldn't do it in this one. it does not happen, it's a ludicrous even suggest that the affidavit could be released at this point in time. >> the government, saying the remain compelling reasons

philbin trying to get the documents back and the president resisting.veral advisers say mr. trump told them. nbc news has not confirmed this yet with our own reporting. but this is from "the new york times." also in this reporting, there is a note i read last week and i want to linger on. this is about the one-trump lawyer who signed a statement saying the material with classified markings had all been returned and there was nothing left in mar-a-lago. he signed a statement to the fbi. official then used a subpoena to obtain surveillance footage of the hallway outside a storage room in mar-a-lago and saw something that alarmed them. they saw information from at least one witness who indicated more material might remain at the residence. people familiar with the investigation that. that's been lingering in my head. what they could have seen on that surveillance video. >> yeah. one of the things reported is boxes going in and out. so that's the kind of thing they could have seen. i think this is part of the reason that you saw in the search warrant the re

pat cipollone and patrick philbin are the highest ranking white house officials to be subpoenaed so farprobably bad for former president trump. >> reporter: prosecutors are deep into their investigation from trump allies to overturn the 2020 election. two top aides to vice president pence appeared before a grand jury last month. subpoenas have already been served to several people who schemed to create fake slates of electors saying trump won the 2020 election in several swing states. earlier this summer fbi agents seized lawyer john eastman's phone and raided jeffrey clark's home. >> can i call my lawyer? >> it shows this is more than what did john eastman do, the attorney that basically came up with that crazy scheme to overturn the election. it probably is a very deep interest on what the president did. >> reporter: cipollone's subpoena was significant. he was close to the president and in the west wing on january 6th. >> i think i was pretty clear there needed to be immediate and forceful response statement, public statement that people need to leave the capitol. >> reporter: cipoll

people thank you for joining us tonight, john, what would pat cipollone, and philbin know about thisar-a-lago documents as white house lawyers? what would they know? >> well, they unnaturally worthy contact points for the archives, and making some of the decisions about what should and should not go. they later got removed from that post, as i think the things of january six unraveled and they were all hands on deck there. but they know apparently a lot, and according to the reporting, they were able to tell the archives that, no, trump did not want to cooperate, he believed these documents were his. and apparently philbin tried to help facilitate getting that information to actually go to the archives. so, they know a little bit, they don't know all the details. i don't think they're involved in packing or shipping. but they certainly have the big picture. but >> what would the fbi be asking him? >> well, they would want to know what was the process to sort out what was classified or not. how did documents get in the shipment that was going to, and why was it going to mar-a-lago? th

could i first just make one point about cipollone and philbin? two of the seven people who were denominated by the former president as his representatives to the national archives so the fact that they were interviewed makes total sense because this was the ball that they were tasked with carrying and i would imagine that doj reached out to the other serve people, which by the way, mark meadows is one and in your time line the other thing i would note is that in june of 2022, just at the time of reaching out by doj, it appears that all seven were replaced by john solomon and kash patel and that was done by the former president and it was just a very interesting confluence and there's a reason that those two people were interviewed by doj and i think that's again, just two of what i would strongly suspect is their attempt to try and talk to all seven. >> no -- >> go ahead. >> you were general counsel to the fbi. there were deputy counsels and deputy general counsels to the office of the presidency. do they have skin in the game? do they have legal

both cipollone and philbin defended donald trump's first impeachment trial.ow is democratic representatives joaquin jeffries of new york. he was impeachment manager in that first impeachment trial of donald trump in the united states senate. thank you very much for joining us tonight congressman jeffrey's. when you get your reaction on this breaking news about over 300 marked classified documents not removed from mar-a-lago and one piece of the new york times reporting that i haven't included yet is that they say the justice department is not convinced that they have it all that there actually may have missed some that are still there. but this is what it has taken, three shipments including that final shipment through the fbi search warrant to get at least 300, over 300 out of donald trump's home. >> it's another extraordinary development. it should shock the conscience, but it's not surprising when you put it in the context and the manner of which donald trump has conducted himself since the moment he burst on to the national scene, at least in the politica

sources each told the "new york times" that while philbin tried to help the national archives retrieve material, trump sold advisers it's not theirs. it's mine. spoken like a toddler or a dictator. joining my know is peter strzok, the former fbi counterintelligence agent and maya riley with the council on human right. maya, i want to call about it, the pats, pat sip cloney and pat philbin are the most senior people who worked for trump and were interviewed by the fbi about the former president's material. they were trump's representative to deal with the national archives, and when trump said those documents are mine, how impactful do you think their interview was when it came to the search warrant, and, what's actly do you think the fbi might have learned from them? >> well, i would call that evidence of intent to violate the law and, remember, it's a crime. so, you know, when the fbi walked away with was evidence that trump intended to commit a crime. now, obviously what that tells us is what we already knew which is, you know, you don't go get a search warrant from an independent ju

and i didn't comply with it, so he's probably talking about that. >> big picture here, you've got philbinpoenaed, cipollone. my understanding is from talking to people smarter than me that their executive privilege claims cannot be as broad to a grand jury as they were to the january 6th committee but there will still be a battle here, a legal battle. i thought in my layman's thin knowledge and understanding of the issues here that this question was decided with nixon at the supreme court, that you can't have executive privilege claims in criminal cases even when it involves a president, particularly a former president. so what's still the question here? >> i think it mostly is decided in nixon. but as in any precedent that is controlling, there's still a matter of how the lower courts will follow it and how lawyers are going to try to spin the precedent. so nixon simply says that a generalized assertion of executive privilege is going to fail when it's confronted by a particularized need in the criminal investigation. it seems like exactly what we have here. similarly in the bruce lindsa

according to three people familiar, trump's white house counsel pat cipollone and deputy patrick philbin were both interviewed by the fbi about sensitive documents stored at mar-a-lago. this as the fallout from the fbi's mar-a-lago search becomes a -- comes to a critical juncture tomorrow. a judge will hear arguments about whether to release the affidavit behind the search, something donald trump wants and the doj opposes. even now, as donald trump's legal troubles mount, his grip on the republican party is tightening. and he just purged one of his high-profile critics. republican liz cheney lost her primary race to a trump-backed opponent by a landslide. but while a cheney may be out of a seat, earlier on "today," she made it clear she's not going anywhere and will keep up her fight against trump. >> there's no political office that's more important than the principles that we take an oath defend. and i believe that donald trump continues to pose a very grave threat and risk to our republic. and i think that defeating him will require a broad and united front of republicans, democrats,

>> well, between cipollone and win philbin and giuliani, it's been a great day for trump's lawyers.n that hearing, with rudy giuliani, and then we think we're gonna be looking for as whether giuliani, who's already been identified as a target of the georgia prosecutors, will plead the fifth amendment over and over again, as he stands before that grand jury. so, i think, i'm really looking to see if we find out anything from rudy giuliani. >> we are, probably my number one question, it is been a week since this search, trump has yet to explain why he had any of these documents that are not his. they belong to the u.s. government or what he planned to do with them? what's up with that? >> i think it's exactly right. his response has been to attack the fbi, to attack merrick garland, to attack joe biden. to say it's all about, you know, his enemies. it's a witch hunt. to say that he is entitled to declassify information. he hasn't told us exactly why did he need it or want it in the first place. we don't know. was it to keep it as a souvenir? was it to use, to trade for something else?

white house counsel pat cipollone and his deputy pat philbin were trump's designated representativesational archives when trump left office. they could have incite about what was taken to mar-a-lago and why 11 sets of classified documents remained there until last monday when fbi agents searched his palm beach home. the court fight is looming. a federal judge announcing that he will hold a hearing thursday on whether to publicly release the affidavit that provided the basis for last monday's search. the justice department seeking to keep it secret saying any release would reveal highly sensitive information about witnesses, specific investigative techniques and it would serve as a roadmap to the 2k3w government's on going investigation. cnn and other media outlets have asked it unsealed. >> and i think that it says there are significant problems here for president trump and many of his advisers post-presidency. >> reporter: trump has repeatedly railed against the search calling it a witch hunt and accusing fbi agents of stealing three of his passports. but trump's attorneys say they

and both cipollone and philbin are actually absolutely inner sanctum. they were there for everything. if they testify, is sort of the equivalent of the white house states for nixon that we didn't have at the time. they were present for all the criminal stuff, more over, we know where they stand on it. we know they told trump it was illegal. we know that they were horrified. now there is this issue. are they going to try to dodge with executive privilege? and will they do it sort of aggressively, or do they just need a kind of court order to make them talk? but i think it really makes it clear that they -- this is coming at trump like a freight train. and that is the real -- that is the only real reason to be looking for both cipollone and philbin. and it could, it could on its own, crack the case, in a way that we have been thinking they need it. a cooperating witness to do. it is really big. >> harry, last question to you, are these new grand jelly developments? are they evidence of a new more aggressive posture from the doj or? this in line with how t

when they were notified, in particular patrick philbin, deputy white house counsel, when he was notifiedapril that the national archives found that there was classified information in these documents, he was stunned. and he was being asked at that time to help team trump review the records. to go up to the national archives and review what had been turned over and figure out what are in these boxes, which you would think they would've looked before but patrick philbin and others backed away from this request by team trump and pretty soon the fbi was knocking on their doors asking the deputy white house counsel 's, we need to interview you. you are now a subject witness. you may be a witness for us about what is going on in this, withholding of what appeared to be incredibly sensitive documents. >> at this point, can you really blame any lawyer who doesn't want to work for donald trump? carol leonnig, washington post national reporter. thank you so much for joining us this evening and with that breaking news to boot. up next, a federal judge that donald trump appointed called into questio

pat cipollone, the former white house kocounsel to former president trump, but also his deputy, pat philbinn told by sources they are working out what this is going to look like when they do testify, but that they do plan to cooperate. they were there for some of the most fraught moments in the white house around january 6th. how significant is this? >> well, i think it's huge. you know, we've seen the accelerating indications that doj is looking at the former president, but this is one of the most dramatic signs yet if you bring in the two pats. i dealt with them a lot during the first impeachment, including in negotiating privilege issues. so i think i have a feeling of what the texture of that is going to be like. they are deal makers, so they are going to work out a way to come in and testify, and that's ominous for president trump because we know that pat cipollone led the way, supported by philbin. pat cipollone led the way in pushing back on some of the instances that appeared to create the greatest criminal risk, the former president knowing that he lost that election. the two pats

this comes after we learned that two top trump white house lawyers, pat cipollone, and pat philbin have been interviewed as part of the d.o.j. investigation into trump's removal of the documents. "the wall street journal" reports that investigators have also reached out to several other trump aides who had knowledge of record-keeping practices including trump's white house assistant. and then there is a totally separate trump investigation being conducted in fulton county, georgia. today, trump's attorney, rudy giuliani, testified for over six hours before a special grand jury in that investigation. once rudy giuliani managed to get through the door of the fulton county courthouse. a federal judge in new mexico also ordered trump lawyer john eastman who of course advocated pressuring the vice president to overturn the results of the election, he has been ordered to testify before the same grand jury by the end of the month. and don't forget about senator lindsey graham who has also been order bid a judge to testify before the same grand jury, in fulton county, and finally, is your head

including white house counsel pat cipollone, deputy counsel patrick philbin named in this letter as his representatives to the national archives. also interviewed, derek lyons who as staff secretary managed all documents that reached the president. witness testimony remains confidential as a new clash pitts former president trump against the department of justice. thursday in florida a federal magistrate will consider unsealing more documents the former president used social media to render his judgment in the interest of transparency, i call for the immediate release of the completely unredacted affidavit. federal prosecutors signaled they are open to releasing some materials but not the affidavit that explains probable cause writing the affidavit would serve as a roadmap to the government's ongoing investigation and would likely chill future cooperation by witnesses. but mr. trump's republican allies are turning up the pressure. >> we need the affidavit show your cards. merrick garland can't have it both ways. he can't give us the warrant without telling us why it was necessary to rai

"the times" reports philbin tried to help the national archives retrieve the materials but was opposed by trump who reportedly said, "it's not theirs, it's mine." last week, the fbi searched trump's residence and seized 11 sets of documents. the unsealed search what revealed trump is being investigated for violating the espionage act, obstruction of justice, and criminal handling of government records. the russian defense ministry has admitted a major blast at a russian ammunition depot in occupied crimea on tuesday was caused by act of sabotage. on tuesday night, ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy thanked those "who oppose the occupiers." he also urged ukrainians to stay from russian military bases and ammunition stores. meanwhile, russian president vladimir putin has accus the united states of trying to drag out the war in ukraine and to provoke china over taiwan. he spoke at the moscow conference on international security. >> the situation in ukraine shows the united states are trying to drag out this conflic and act in exactly the same way, feeling the potential for conflict i

but patrick philbin and others backed away from this request from team trump.he fbi was knocking on their doors asking the deputy white house counsels, we need to interview you. you're now a subject witness. you may be a witness for us about what's going on in this with holding of what appear to be incredibly sensitive documents. >> at this point, can you really blame any lawyer who doesn't want to work for donald trump? carol leonnig, washington post national reporter, thank you so much for joining us this evening and with that breaking news to boot. >>> up next a federal judge that donald trump appointed calls into question the lawsuit he filed against the doj. former prosecutor rebecca roifi joins us next. we'll be right back. joins us next. we'll be right back. (woman) oh. oh! hi there. you're jonathan, right? the 995 plan! yes, from colonial penn. your 995 plan fits my budget just right. excuse me? aren't you jonathan from tv, that 995 plan? yes, from colonial penn. i love your lifetime rate lock. that's what sold me. she thinks you're jonathan, with the 9

and three observations about pat philbin. he's brilliant. he's honest and on the matter that we worked together involving highly classified matters. >> we're learning this new information reported by the times. just 48 hours or so before we expect to hear from the government on thursday or at least to hear arguments in front of the government thursday on why this affidavit overall should not be released. how is that going to look? how is that going to go down? >> lawyers for nbc news and other news organizations are going to argue why we believe the document should be unsealed. but the justice department made a forceful case yesterday for why they say that unsealing this document in unredacted form would compromise the investigation. in doing that, they really made some revelations about the nature of this investigation. they made it pretty clear that this isn't just about getting the classified documents back. they said there's an ongoing grand jury information involving multiple witnesses, some of whose identities they do not want to discl

philbin are the most senior people who worked for mr.een interviewed by investigators after the national archives referred the matter to the justice department this year. those are two top attorneys, including the white house counsel. let's bring in our panel ben domenech editor-at-large spectator of the ben domenech podcast on fox news radio. katie pavlich. and harold ford jr. former tennessee congressman and co-host of "the five." okay, ben, what do you make of all of this. we are obviously waiting for this magistrate down in florida about the affidavit. really that's the next shoe that drops. >> it is the next shoe to drop but i think unfortunately we are now through the looking glass in so many different ways when it comes to our consideration of this issue. unfortunately, i think that no one can have any confidence that we are going to be receiving a true picture from the fbi from the department of justice about the nature of the way that all this played out. unfortunately, i wish that we could have confidence in these institutions.

we know that from cipollone, we know that from philbin, his deputy counsel. level of classified and the most classified of documents, then you are playing with fire. it just makes no sense that he thought that he could just stiff them, and not get himself in a whole heap of trouble. somebody had to tell him that this was espionage. this is obstruction of justice, and he does not want to hear it. he seems to think that he is teflon, but i think this one will stick. >> interesting. george conway, we are learning in the reporting some unreturned documents like letters between trump and kim jong-un, that were requested just before the end of the trump term. does that speak to intent? >> absolutely. he knew that these documents had to go back, and he insisted on taking them. there is reporting that says that he was the one who called through them the first time before they gave 15 boxes back. his fingerprints literally and figuratively are on this episode. and he is standing, he's out there all alone by himself because all of the people around him who were respons

when did they speak to cipilone and philbin?oup of former white house aides interviewed by the fbi earlier this year in the spring to try to figure out what happened with these boxes, how they came -- these boxes of federal records, how they came to be taken to mar-a-lago at the end of the trump presidency. patrick philbin, the deputy white house counsel and pat cipilone were interviewed earlier this year. obviously, these are the two most senior former trump aides that would have been talked to by the fbi as they were trying to get this criminal investigation under way. of course, now we know that this is a criminal investigation that is looking into mishandling of possible -- possible mishandling of classified information and a federal investigation. there is a lot more of this investigation to go. the interesting thing from here being that these, again, are very senior, senior lawyers for the former trump white house. and they were interviewed by the fbi as this investigation was just getting started. >> yeah. it really is a

york times" the fbi interviewed former white house counsel pat cipollone and his deputy, patrick philbinction with the classified boxes found in mar-a-lago. they are the most senior people who worked for trump known to have been interviewed in the case. and this morning, former vice president mike pence, in new hampshire, joined the calls to release the information. >> i call on attorney general garland to give the american people a full accounting of the reasons why this action was necessary. and while he's begun to do so, he's not nearly enough information has been provided, and these attacks on the fbi must stop. calls to defund the fbi are just as wrong as calls to defund the police. >> with us now to talk about this is ken delainian. what more have we learned about what the attorney general made to approve that warrant? >> i confirmed a report that garland took a couple of weeks to decide this question, and he met with very senior officials at the justice department and at the fbi, and some critics have suggested that this was, you know, wishy washy and typical garland being overly

sources say patrick philbin former deputy white house counsel has been subpoenaed by the department of justice. that comes on the heels of his former boss, white house counsel pat cipollone, also being served with a grand jury subpoena. as one of the two republican members of the january 6th committee puts it, quote, this is probably bad for former president trump. >>> also first on cnn, the secret service may temporarily disable text messaging on employees' drel phones as the agency scrambles to respond to concerns it may have erased messages relevant to the investigations into january 6th. joining us now maggie haberman, senior political correspondent for "the new york times," as well as daniel goldman, lead counsel in the first impeachment inquiry against donald trump, also running for congress in new york's 10th congressional district. great to see you both. let's start with you, dan. what do you make of this phil bin being called in front of the grand jury. what are the stakes? >> pat philbin was next to pat cipollone in everything that happened in the white house counsel's office

about the documents seized the at mar-a-lago >>> former white house counsel pat cipollone and pat philbinw the highest ranking trump officials interviewed in the investigation. >>> the news coming as a battle over unsealing the affidavit rages. the doj arguing it would harm the probe. mr. trump saying release it now. >>> also tonight, the high stakes primary will liz cheney, one of the most vocal gop critics against donald trump lose her seat in congress. >>> president biden capping a big win for democrats signing that sweeping climate health care and tax bill. >>> first lady jill biden testing positive for covid while on vacation with the president what we know about her symptoms. >>> the massive explosions rocking another russian military facility in crimea the russians claiming sabotage >>> the growing megadrought in the west now the unprecedented water cuts states are facing. >>> kids under pressure. billions of federal relief money for schools to improve air quality. why haven't more of them used it.

about the documents seized the at mar-a-lago >>> former white house counsel pat cipollone and pat philbinthe highest ranking trump officials interviewed in the investigation. >>> the news coming as a battle over unsealing the affidavit rages. the doj arguing it would harm the probe. mr. trump saying release it now. >>> also tonight, the high stakes primary will liz cheney, one of the most vocal gop critics against donald trump lose her seat in congress. >>> president biden capping a big win for democrats signing that sweeping climate health care and tax bill. >>> first lady jill biden testing positive for covid while on vacation with the president what we know about her symptoms. >>> the massive explosions rocking another russian military facility in crimea the russians claiming sabotage >>> the growing megadrought in the west now the unprecedented water cuts states are facing. >>> kids under pressure. billions of federal relief money for schools to improve air quality. why haven't more of them used it. >>> the treasures left between the pages. the library collection "inspiring america."

that's not right. >> pat philbin. >> i got half of it right. faces now from the january 6th hearings. then he gets there and the lawyers he assembles to sort of negotiate, they do a combination of returning and lying about what he has. his intent to keep something he knows he shouldn't have is so much more brazen. is that a product of never being held accountable for any of his other criminal or corrupt acts, or is it a variation in his pattern, in your view, harry? >> yeah. so, this is one of the trump imponderables. i could see it either way, but it's so secondary to what he did, so secondary to knowing that he took the documents. by the way, imagine him just before, after cipollone says he can't take them, foraging around, seeing what's good, what does he want. he takes them all. and then, yes, bobs, weaves, and eventually flatout lies. is it just, you know, i'm trump and i get to have what i want? or does he see a deal of sorts to be made there? but it's so important to understand, it doesn't matter. these are the kinds of things, and every