phyllis schnek the chief technology officer for the public sector division of mcí afee and larry castro the managing director of the chertoff group consultcy who served for decades at the national security agency. gentlemen and lady welcome to the show. >> thank you. >> for years we've been hearing the vast majority of the cyber attacks that happen are hackers are the guys who are doing it and that it's very hard to attribute states to any nefarious activity. how is that threat evolving now? >> i think it's changing in two fundamental ways. first of all, the target is not just the united states military, governments in general or institutions like that, they are virtually everybody, industry, individuals and so who is being threatened has expanded greatly. they've become more complex, they've become more insidious. the second thing is that instead of breaking and entering as a concept in disrupting, they're finding more and value to certificate ip tishesly infill straighting and stealing. so oftentimes in today's environment hacking is, in fact, another word for steal. >> larry, let me