do you see, polly toynbee, asa migrants. and given that ina as a result of this, and given that in a sense you might be getting less fractious if britain leaves because it has always been a sort of relu cta nt it has always been a sort of reluctant eu member, do you see the task could be easier or harder for angela merkel? well, she remains the key figure. she and macron together, one shouldn't forget that it's a great relief that both of them are there as the stabilising factor in europe. all of these fringe nationalistic extreme right parties have been essentially defeated. they didn't win in france, in holland, in germany. not this time, though. at one point in britain, ukip115% of the vote, just because we have a different electoral system, they didn't get a single mp. but they're still very much on the margins and i don't think we should be overly obsessed, the great majority of europeans remain a decent anti—racist, anti—extremist and i don't see an imminent move to change the essential values of europe, which sadly, b

to discuss all of that, i'm joined by henry chu, international editor at variety, polly toynbee fromhe guardian in the uk, maria margaronis, who writes for the nation, stefanie bolzen from germany's die welt. welcome to all of you, good to have you with us. let's begin with the referendum question. what do you make of the way the governments in iraq and spain have been responded to the referendums proposed and held? it makes you actually be more in favour of referendums then i would normally be inclined to be because i tend to think referendums put very complex questions in very simple terms, which is something we saw with the brexit referendum very vividly, when everybody was actually voting on a different topic and for different reasons on a very apparently simple question. but when you see spanish government resorting to the most repressive tactics to prevent the catalan referendum happening, you think, well, there is a reason to do this after all and if i were catalans and inclined to vote no, i might begin to think about voting yes because of it. germany, of course, has, as i wa

to discuss all of that, i'm joined by henry chu, international editor at variety, polly toynbee from welt. welcome to all of you, good to have you with us.

hudson—wilkin, who is chaplain to the speaker of the house of commons, and by the guardian columnist polly toynbeein than to say what he said he should not be barred from high office? we live in a liberal democracy. freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and so it is important for anyone in any particular role to be able to express that this is what they feel or this is what they believe. i do not believe that it should bar them from leadership of any kind. but what about if the consensus goes the other way, does that make a difference? what do you mean. if the consensus, for example, is views about incest and rape, that particular position, is a view which is not necessarily held by the majority of the population — does that matter? well, the population will soon do something about that. they will say, i'm sorry, we don't want to have this person, but i'm talking specifically about religious views, which should not be apart from leadership, any kind of leadership. it is a form of discrimination, isn't it, to say that somebody who holds deep religious views is not suitable to hold high office?