am i to understand that form is by the — post office? t any input by fujitsu, _ form is by the post office without any input by fujitsu, or— form is by the post office without any input by fujitsu, or is - form is by the post office without any input by fujitsu, or is it- form is by the post office without any input by fujitsu, or is it a - any input by fujitsu, or is it a combined _ any input by fujitsu, or is it a combined effort, _ any input by fujitsu, or is it a combined effort, or- any input by fujitsu, or is it a combined effort, or what? i any input by fujitsu, or is ital combined effort, orwhat? i'm any input by fujitsu, or is it a - combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite _ combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure — combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure where _ combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure where we _ combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure where we are _ combined effort, orwhat? i'm not quite sure where we are with - combined effort, orwhat? i'm not| quite sure where we are with that, so ijust— quite s

the post office in - office...naccurate information provided via your company at led to wrongful prosecutions of people who are subsequently imprisoned? legacy subsequently imprisoned ? legacy scandal, subsequently imprisoned? legacy scandal, isn“t subsequently imprisoned? legacy scandal, isn't it? that subsequently imprisoned? legacy scandal, isn't it?— scandal, isn't it? that exactly one ofthe scandal, isn't it? that exactly one of the topics _ scandal, isn't it? that exactly one of the topics that _ scandal, isn't it? that exactly one of the topics that the _ scandal, isn't it? that exactly one of the topics that the inquiry - scandal, isn't it? that exactly one of the topics that the inquiry is i of the topics that the inquiry is looking — of the topics that the inquiry is looking at. _ of the topics that the inquiry is looking at. looking _ of the topics that the inquiry is looking at. looking at - of the topics that the inquiry is looking at. looking at what - of the topics that the inquiry is - looking at. l

post office _ post office, i knew how to run a post office i knew all these people.come magistrates. you know, the irony of that _ magistrates. you know, the irony of that. . magistrates. you know, the irony of that. , , that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times _ that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times in _ that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times in the _ that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times in the years - that. yes. bal, you... uber section to three times in the years that. to three times in the years that followed the post office pursuing you. —— you were sectioned three times. i wonder if you can give the audience a little insight into what that was like.— that was like. yes, of course. initially the _ that was like. yes, of course. initially the trauma _ that was like. yes, of course. initially the trauma of - that was like. yes, of course. initially the trauma of what i initially the trauma of what happened that day, that will always live with me. like com, you can forgive but you cannot forget what happened. they tu

tte: post office denied that, didn't it? i believe it did. 50 post office denied that, didn't it?he post office were not telling _ i believe it did. so the post office were not telling the _ i believe it did. so the post office were not telling the truth - i believe it did. so the post office were not telling the truth at - i believe it did. so the post office were not telling the truth at the i were not telling the truth at the time? t were not telling the truth at the time? ~' ., were not telling the truth at the time? ~ ., ., , . ~ ., were not telling the truth at the time? ~' ., ., , . ~' ., . time? i know only what i know, and i know certainly _ time? i know only what i know, and i know certainly as _ time? i know only what i know, and i know certainly as part _ time? i know only what i know, and i know certainly as part of— time? i know only what i know, and i know certainly as part of that - know certainly as part of that process — know certainly as part of that process the remit access was documented and communicated. obviously, the post office when aware but denied it. ta

there must, must _ of post office limited. there must, must be _ of post office limited. nt of any colour to keep the momentum going on this, to ensure justice _ momentum going on this, to ensure justice and _ momentum going on this, to ensure justice and realjustice, is served, and if— justice and realjustice, is served, and if that— justice and realjustice, is served, and if that involves more pressure on the _ and if that involves more pressure on the former ceo and for people who received _ on the former ceo and for people who received honours because of the work they did _ received honours because of the work they did in _ received honours because of the work they did in post office limited, i know— they did in post office limited, i know the — they did in post office limited, i know the minister is nodding, he will agree — know the minister is nodding, he will agree with me. can know the minister is nodding, he will agree with me.— will agree with me. can i thank her for her questions _ will agree with me. can i thank her for her questions and indeed - will agree wit

it could bejust and post office head office.the normal process of fixing those bugs without them ever realising that it impacted a postmaster in such a way. sorry... i was about to ask, are you surprised that fujitsu seems to have had such a hands—off approach to this? i strongly suspect that if you were to talk to cut privately or if they were having conversations behind closed doors with the post office, what they would be saying is, we complied with all the terms and conditions of the contract that we had with the post office. we do it all the things that we were legally obliged to do. we did all the things that the post office asked us to do. so the question is around, what did the post office ask them to do? did the post office ask them to do? did the post office sign off and approve software that was not good enough? if it wasn't good enough, did fujitsu openly say to the post office, well, there are some problems here and it is up to you whether you are willing to accept those, we will fix them as we go along? publicly, t

my main post office continued _ and then my main post office continued i_ and then my main post officeney in weekly, monthly until— continued. i was putting money in weekly, monthly until i— continued. i was putting money in weekly, monthly until ijust - continued. i was putting money in weekly, monthly until ijust ran. continued. i was putting money in. weekly, monthly until ijust ran out of money — weekly, monthly until ijust ran out of money i— weekly, monthly until ijust ran out of money i kept_ weekly, monthly until ijust ran out of money. i kept phoning _ weekly, monthly until ijust ran out of money. i kept phoning the - weekly, monthly until ijust ran outi of money. i kept phoning the health line every— of money. i kept phoning the health line every time _ of money. i kept phoning the health line every time they tell— of money. i kept phoning the health line every time they tell me - of money. i kept phoning the health line every time they tell me to i line every time they tell me to press — line every time they tell me to press buttons— line every time they tell me to press but

under the orders of the post office under the orders of the post office under the orders of the postime that the branch manager had told the new buyer that i was made bankrupt and he needn't offer the full money. it must have put a huge stress on you and your wife, what was your reaction from the local community? i was brought up in easterhouse and when i was taking the post office on i had no idea of any trouble. my wife did, she was a little bit unsure. i was brought up there, went to school there and i knew a lot of people and they could not believe it. they knew that there was no chance of me stealing money. you know, when we got locked out they could not believe it. after that, we met some of them in a local supermarket and they were all devastated, they were asking us to come back. we found out at that time that the person who had taken over the post office and paid the money, the post office and paid the money, the £42,000, he had run away. he shut the post office up one day and did not come back. this shut the post office up one day and did not come back.— did not come back.

it was drafted by cartwright king and the post office. and the post office? security— post office.f this document. we have a proposed form of words from mr singh, the post office lawyer responsible for criminal matters. he was the post office law responsible for criminal matters, wasn't he? do you call someone called hugh lymington?— you call someone called hugh l lymington?_ a you call someone called hugh - lymington?_ a form lymington? don't recall him. a form of words has — lymington? don't recall him. a form of words has been _ lymington? don't recall him. a form of words has been sent _ lymington? don't recall him. a form of words has been sent and - lymington? don't recall him. a form of words has been sent and if- lymington? don't recall him. a form of words has been sent and if we - of words has been sent and if we scroll up we see an e—mail from someone called simon baker, about that, thank you, do you recall him? i do not know. he says, please can help us crop the message around the second review, we need to combat the assertion that the review is acknowledgement that the

my connection was to the post office. we had a - was to the post office.y team who were responsible for the sale of services associated with the new telecoms contract, and clearly any renewal or extension to the horizon system subsequently. did you remain in that role until you got— did you remain in that role until you got your present position in 2019? _ 2019? no, that role zom — no, that role changed. sol zom — no, that role changed. so i became 2019? no, that role chan-ed. so i became a no, that role changed. so i became a european head of sales and business development and i did not have a direct team involved in the post office then. how long did your involvement with the post _ how long did your involvement with the post office last? i would... the post office last? iwould... fouryears, the post office last? iwould... four years, five the post office last? i would... four years, five years. in that four to five year period, let's call it between 2012 and 2014, sorry, 2016—17, how regularly were you sorry, 2016-17, how regularly were 0 :, , , , sorry

if you could explain the post office is owned by the l the post office is owned by the government andin this appeals process that angus a lot of people and there are calls for that to be somehow removed but who could replace it and what could be the process and do you think that could happen? process and do you think that could ha en? . �* , process and do you think that could hauen? �*, process and do you think that could hauen? happen? that's right, it's a sliuhtl happen? that's right, it's a slightly complex _ happen? that's right, it's a slightly complex legal - happen? that's right, it's a - slightly complex legal architecture. the post office is an arms length body of the government, operating as a private company with a board and chief executive and all of the sort of things you'd expect from a private company except it's shareholders the government and one of the independent non—executive directors on the board as a civil servant and the government has some sort of arms length control over it. people are saying that the post office seems to have lost sight of the pack that ult

post office applicant and it was not possible _ post office applicant and it was not possible for— postf horizon was _ the second was the reliability of horizon was essential— the second was the reliability of horizon was essential to - the second was the reliability of horizon was essential to the - horizon was essential to the prosecution _ horizon was essential to the prosecution and _ horizon was essential to the prosecution and an - horizon was essential to the prosecution and an affront l horizon was essential to the i prosecution and an affront to horizon was essential to the - prosecution and an affront to the public— prosecution and an affront to the public conscience. _ prosecution and an affront to the public conscience. since - prosecution and an affront to the public conscience. since those i prosecution and an affront to the . public conscience. since those cases were referred — public conscience. since those cases were referred to _ public conscience. since those cases were referred to the _ public conscience. since those cases were referred to the court _ public conscien

you 'oin the post office i office should carry out.viewed board - the post office in 2015. 2019. but you have reviewed board minutes going back beyond that point. certainly specific ones, yes. 50 i certainly specific ones, yes. so i know you _ certainly specific ones, yes. so i know you can't _ certainly specific ones, yes. so i know you can't give _ certainly specific ones, yes. so i know you can't give us _ certainly specific ones, yes. ’ir i know you can't give us an certainly specific ones, yes. 5r i know you can't give us an exact date, month or year when you first saw horizon referenced in any kind of board paper, but would you... do you have a recollection that at some point before 2015, there was a reference to horizon and some possible issues. you must have a vague recollection, having reviewed all those documents. i am not asking for a date. pre—2015, was there any mention of possible issues? in for a date. pre-2015, was there any mention of possible issues?- mention of possible issues? in the board minutes? _ mention of poss

if it was an issue, i would expect fujitsu to inform the post office and the full post office to let ce to let us know what what the are . was that the issues are. i was given that statement cartwright, king statement by cartwright, king and put that statement and told to put that statement through. in hindsight, after i've failed in my previous statements , they probably should statements, they probably should have stating have been another line stating that these are not my words, but it . the statement produced as it. the statement is produced as a business statement . a business statement. >> stephen bradshaw, defending himself at the post office inquiry earlier on today. meanwhile fujitsu workers in the west midlands are set to strike later this month in a dispute over pay . it comes amid calls over pay. it comes amid calls for fujitsu to lose uk government contracts over the horizon. it scandal. about 300 members of the pcs union set to walk out on january the 17th. the union warning it is likely to cause disruption , especially to cause disruption, especially for people filling

post office contracts because _ post office contracts.e l contracts because you have the horizon system written by fujitsu, it is their system, so it needs replacing and they need a lot of funding to do that, the post office and until that, it is fujitsu so i don't think there's a lot of choice. i think horizon is very different now from years gone by but i'm not the expert on that point would you give them a new contract at the post office until it sorted out? i think they need to keep their own system going but there is a new system needed. and i think it's pretty clear what the post office should do but having a new contractor. band but having a new contractor. and also aet but having a new contractor. and also get fuiitsu _ but having a new contractor. and also get fujitsu to pony up some compensation question absolutely. thank you. the nigerian televangelist tb joshua was one of the most powerful religious figures of the early 21st century, an evangelical preacher feted by presidents and premier league footballers. through his christ

post office was made aware of that bug i_ post office was made aware of that bug ijust— post office wasr— bug. ijust want to be clear about this. is your evidence _ bug. ijust want to be clear about this. is your evidence that - bug. ijust want to be clear about this. is your evidence that each l bug. ijust want to be clear about . this. is your evidence that each and every— this. is your evidence that each and every bug _ this. is your evidence that each and every bug was — this. is your evidence that each and every bug was notified _ this. is your evidence that each and every bug was notified to _ this. is your evidence that each and every bug was notified to the - this. is your evidence that each and every bug was notified to the post i every bug was notified to the post office _ every bug was notified to the post office contemporaneously, - every bug was notified to the post office contemporaneously, or- every bug was notified to the post. office contemporaneously, or more every bug was notified to the post - office contemporaneously, or more or less contemporaneously? _ office cont

and if we scroll down, over the page, we have the ring field post office, which is mrs mchugh's post n. do you recall being informed that there might be issues with the transaction i am sure that the ar 0 data was obtained. and the issue is that where it is obtained, there may be a problem with the actual data itself. the data would _ with the actual data itself. the data would have _ with the actual data itself. tue: data would have been looked with the actual data itself. tue data would have been looked at to see whether there was duplicate data in there, because the transaction which showed the same, you would have two perfectly... sort of cash withdrawal with the same number and the same number at the same time. and knowing... this is 2010, so quite a bit of time before that plea was accepted. knowing these kinds of issues can arise with even audit data, in her case in the no thomas's case, do you think it was appropriate for the post office to be insisting on conditional pleas on the basis that there was nothing wrong with the system? probably not, no. i have about 15 minutes, i

post office building.peaker pro tempore: pursuan t to the rule, the gentleman the gentleman from maryland, mr0 minutes. the chair recognizes the gentleman from florida. mr. donalds: madam speaker, i ask unanimous consent that all members have five legislative days in which to revise and extend their remarks. and include extraneous material on this measure. the speaker pro tempore: without objection. mr. donalds: madam speaker, i yield myself as much time as i may consume. mr. donalds: i rise in support of this name the post office in laredo texas. the speaker pro tempore: lance corporales pi knowsd the marine corps in 2019 and 13 servicemembers killed in a suicide bombing during the united states' withdrawa from afghanistan. he was just 20 years old. lance corporal served in the marine force reserves after graduating from high school in the year 2000. in 2005 at the age of 23, he died conducting combat operations in iraq. sergeant arises disoala and in 2004, one day before he was set to return home he was

for the post office to attend individual post offices?— post offices?n audit, it depends on _ post offices? for an audit, it depends on the _ post offices? for an audit, it depends on the size - post offices? for an audit, it depends on the size of - post offices? for an audit, it depends on the size of the l post offices? for an audit, it - depends on the size of the branch. does it strike you as unusual to have five people? it does it strike you as unusual to have five people?— does it strike you as unusual to have five people? it depends on the size of the branch _ have five people? it depends on the size of the branch and _ have five people? it depends on the size of the branch and the _ have five people? it depends on the size of the branch and the audit - size of the branch and the audit team will take into account the amount of cash and stock in the branch, and they will put the number of people accordingly to get it done as quickly as possible.— as quickly as possible. please turn to -a~e as quickly as possible. please turn to page four- _ as qu

the post office and the post office to let us _ post office and the post office to let us know what. these documents are from 2010. we will go through a number of different case studies in due course. how soon were you aware of horizon being raised as an issue? from 2010, as i say, people were raising — from 2010, as i say, people were raising it. _ from 2010, as i say, people were raising it, and overthe from 2010, as i say, people were raising it, and over the next few years _ years. when you say years. — when you say 2010 as years — when you say 2010 as the yrs — when you say 2010 as the starting point, or is there an earlier... ? i think some may have even mentioned it earlier~ _ it earlier. we - it earlier. we will go back live now it earlier. — we will go back live now to the hearing, where evidence continues to be given. we have a problem which should be solved in a few minutes with the transcripts, and my colleagues and i will sit here rather than go in and help, but feel free to have a quiet chat amongst yourselves until we start again. studio: apologies, it looks like ther

_ post office, and the post office to let us know what the issues are. of horizon being raised as an issue? it were aware of horizon being raised as an issue?— as an issue? it was raised during these... as an issue? it was raised during these- -- as _ as an issue? it was raised during these... as you _ as an issue? it was raised during these... as you say, _ as an issue? it was raised during these... as you say, from i as an issue? it was raised during these... as you say, from 2010. | these... as you say, from 2010. people — these... as you say, from 2010. people were _ these... as you say, from 2010. people were raising it between then and over— people were raising it between then and over the next few years.- and over the next few years. would ou sa and over the next few years. would you say 2010 _ and over the next few years. would you say 2010 is _ and over the next few years. would you say 2010 is the _ and over the next few years. would you say 2010 is the starting - and over the next few years. would you say 2010 is the starting point i you say 2

her about the post office. n! prison? that was actually my next question! what _ prison? that was actually my next question! what about _ prison? that was actually my next question! what about your - prison? that was actually my next| question! what about your mother prison? that was actually my next - question! what about your mother and father? the effect on them as well? as a family this isn't something we have ever been able to talk about until the programme was released, so grateful for the itv dramatisation because at least it has brought the conversation up will stop as a family we managed five minutes of the tv show before my dad had to remove himself and go to bed. to not even be able to be exposed to a tv show i think gives some sense of the long lasting impact of this. it impacts the family more than you realise _ impacts the family more than you realise. how your parents have tried to protect _ realise. how your parents have tried to protect you in your teenage years is the _ to protect you in your t

we got caught up in the post office scandal as well. i in the post office scandal as well. time and things. people were saying that you and your wife had carried out the robberies? part of the group.— part of the group. what are the parallels. _ part of the group. what are the parallels, patrick, _ part of the group. what are the parallels, patrick, contractually with what mark went through and the contracts we have heard about of other sub postmaster is more recently? other sub postmaster is more recentl ? other sub postmaster is more recently?— other sub postmaster is more recentl ? , ., recently? the contracts are the same contracts and — recently? the contracts are the same contracts and it is _ recently? the contracts are the same contracts and it is basically _ recently? the contracts are the same contracts and it is basically the - contracts and it is basically the same — contracts and it is basically the same approach they took. so whether it was— same approach they took. so whether it was a _ same approach they took. so whether it was a loss _ same approach they to

_ affairs, was told by a previous post office minister, everything is fine, post office — office ministerlling. what about the argument that there is plenty of legislation here, we don't need any more, and certainly not kneejerk legislation? more, and certainly not knee'erk regisution?�* more, and certainly not knee'erk leaislation? , , ., ., , legislation? this comes down to this bod here, legislation? this comes down to this body here. the _ legislation? this comes down to this body here, the horizon _ legislation? this comes down to this body here, the horizon conversation| body here, the horizon conversation advisory— body here, the horizon conversation advisory board, _ body here, the horizon conversation advisory board, and _ body here, the horizon conversation advisory board, and they _ body here, the horizon conversation i advisory board, and they recommended in december— advisory board, and they recommended in december in— advisory board, and they recommended in december in a— advisory board, and they recommended in december in a letter— advisory board, and they recommended in de

post office to say, we will accept your— the post office to say, we will accept your plea _ the posti the post office to say, we willi accept your plea but only if you don't _ accept your plea but only if you don't blame _ accept your plea but only if you don't blame horizon? - accept your plea but only if you don't blame horizon?— accept your plea but only if you don't blame horizon? probably not. thank you- — don't blame horizon? probably not. thank you- so _ don't blame horizon? probably not. thank you. so what _ don't blame horizon? probably not. thank you. so what did _ don't blame horizon? probably not. thank you. so what did janet - don't blame horizon? probably not. thank you. so what did janet make | don't blame horizon? probably not. l thank you. so what did janet make of it all at the end? _ thank you. so what did janet make of it all at the end? i _ thank you. so what did janet make of it all at the end? i thought _ thank you. so what did janet make of it all at the end? i thought he - thank you. so what did janet make of it all at the end? i thought he was - it all at th

post office in their— the post office in their prosecutions— the post office in their prosecutions ofof the - the post office in their— prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, _ prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we _ prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we are — prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we are truly— prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we are truly sorry. _ prosecutions of the sub—postmasters. for that, we are truly sorry. to - for that, we are truly sorry. to your— for that, we are truly sorry. to your question _ for that, we are truly sorry. to your question around - for that, we are truly sorry. to your question around our- for that, we are truly sorry. to i your question around our ethics, i believe _ your question around our ethics, i believe we — your question around our ethics, i believe we are _ your question around our ethics, i believe we are an _ your question around our ethics, i believe we are an ethical- your question around our ethics, i. believe we are an ethical company. the company— believe we are an ethi

your mum to cover your post office. three times. your mum to cover your post office-— post office.parents were told | post office. excuse me. so, what| happened, my parents were told i post office. excuse me. so, what - happened, my parents were told i had committed _ happened, my parents were told i had committed fraud, i was a criminal comedy— committed fraud, i was a criminal comedy that were then duped into taking _ comedy that were then duped into taking the post office back over. they— taking the post office back over. they took— taking the post office back over. they took over a period after i had been _ they took over a period after i had been there — they took over a period after i had been there and had been some interim people _ been there and had been some interim people. they were told that because i had people. they were told that because i had done _ people. they were told that because i had done something, that the business — i had done something, that the business was sound. dad, who took the business over officially as the postmaster, it was done over a handshake,

_ reveal why fujitsu didn't alert post office to _ reveal why fujitsu didn't alert post office to theit was delayed and i have got is that it was delayed and i don't _ have got is that it was delayed and i don't know why. papers don't idon't know why. papers don't reveal— i don't know why. papers don't reveal why?— i don't know why. papers don't reveal why? no. would i don't know why. papers don't revealwhy? no. would you i don't know why. papers don't reveal why? no. would you agree that as reveal why? no would you agree that as the reveal why? would you agree that as the issue reveal why? 1117. would you agree that as the issue was one which was capable — as the issue was one which was capable of— as the issue was one which was capable of impacting on criminal and civil proceedings, as is later recognised, it ought to have been notified _ recognised, it ought to have been notified to — recognised, it ought to have been notified to the post office properly? element yes. -- notified to the post office properly? element yes. can properly? element yes. -- yes. can we 'ust properly? elem

remove the post office. from the process. _ process. remove the post office. from the process.ess. remove the post office. from the process. because they i process. remove the post office. - from the process. because they have too much power over convictions being overturned or being referred to the courts. and also, even with compensation, they are the ones that are running the show. bud compensation, they are the ones that are running the show.— are running the show. and the labour aurees. are running the show. and the labour agrees- -- — are running the show. and the labour agrees- -- later- _ are running the show. and the labour agrees. -- later. the _ are running the show. and the labour agrees. -- later. the prosecution - agrees. -- later. the prosecution should be — agrees. -- later. the prosecution should be taken _ agrees. -- later. the prosecution should be taken out _ agrees. -- later. the prosecution should be taken out of— agrees. -- later. the prosecution should be taken out of the - agrees. -- later. the prosecution should be taken out of the hands| agrees. -- la

he still works for the post office, he has worked for them for more than a0 years.n why for example his witness statement in the words of the inquiry counsel was the bare minimum of what he could have offered to the inquiry in terms of what he knew about the horizon it system. what he knew about the horizon it s stem. . ~ what he knew about the horizon it s stem. ., ~ ,, ., system. thank you, we will leave it there so you _ system. thank you, we will leave it there so you can — system. thank you, we will leave it there so you can run _ system. thank you, we will leave it there so you can run back - system. thank you, we will leave it there so you can run back into - system. thank you, we will leave it there so you can run back into the i there so you can run back into the room and make sure you were there from the start. we will go back to her throughout the day and as this inquiry progresses. as a reminder, she is going back because she and her colleague at the bbc are both reporting from the courtroom and giving us updates regularly on our news website. they are a

own the post office, the post office. about other office.he other person involved that person involved here that fujitsu whatever. it's fujitsu or jitsi, whatever. it's called? yeah, they seem to me all the fingers are pointing at their and they denied their systems and they denied blame. deeply culpable blame. they are deeply culpable and they to me should cough up a huge amount. and yes, of course, ed go, but he's ed davey should go, but he's finished anyway. he hasn't. >> right. well, let tell >> all right. well, let me tell you that fujitsu have apologised for distress. for the damage and distress. >> so sorry. >> brilliant. i'm so sorry. >> brilliant. i'm so sorry. >> they've also they've also >> and they've also they've also said work actively said that they'll work actively in, in you know, fixing the issues that have occurred. >> words weasel words and all of that. >> but james, if this was in america , that woman, that america, that woman, that remarkable lady that you just heard, she'd be a millionaire. now having gone through the

bates versus the post office . . >> the controversy centres around 700 sub postmasters prosecuted and convicted after dodgyit prosecuted and convicted after dodgy it software made it look like money was missing from their branches. >> fresh calls have been made for those responsible to be held to account with more than 1 million people signing a petition calling on former post office boss paula vennells to be stripped of her cbe. >> joining us now is gb news political correspondent and olivia utley to bring us up to speed on what's happening today on this most awful story. olivia, thank you so much for joining us today. olivia, thank you so much for joining us today . um, olivia, joining us today. um, olivia, what's what's i mean, this is the worst scandal i think i've ever covered as journalist. ever covered as a journalist. what's happening move what's happening today? to move it on. >> well, absolutely . it is the >> well, absolutely. it is the worst scandal. and of course, it is absolutely an ongoing scandal. th

you are the post office minister.e back control over the post office? well, janet, i was talking about your case yesterday with david davis, sir david davis, who i think has been working on your behalf... you weren't holding back when it comes... all they keep saying is that, you know, "now that we're aware of what's been going on..." they've known for years and years and they've done nothing. you've not had a government ear like that before, have you? no, no. yeah, i think we're finally getting listened to, but there's a long way to go. with pressure mounting, we watched as the prime minister took the floor in parliament this lunchtime. it was broadly positive. we wait to hear details on it. but introducing legislation, especially, is what we've been calling for to exonerate people. you can potentially get an interim payment of £75,000. how does that feel? well, we borrowed money over many years. it would give us pension security. we're old and decrepit enough. you know, i lost my pension at 55 because we had to put

paula i vennells has got the cbe, services to the post office.— to the post office.s all very different _ to the post office. today it was all very different for _ to the post office. today it was all very different for paula _ to the post office. today it was all very different for paula vennells i to the post office. today it was all| very different for paula vennells as she caved to mounting public pressure to hand back the honour. she had been chief executive of the post office from 2012—19, a period when serious issues emerged about the horizon software. in her statement today, she said... it must be a bug. it must be a computer bug... it must be a bug. it must be a computer bug. . ._ it must be a bug. it must be a computer bug... lea castleton's story was _ computer bug... lea castleton's story was one — computer bug... lea castleton's story was one of _ computer bug... lea castleton's story was one of those - computer bug... lea castleton's story was one of those featured | computer bug... lea castleton's i story was one of those featured in the drama series.

i are the face of the post office. thank— are the face of the post office.ll so much, - are the face of the post office. thank you all so much, thanki are the face of the post office. i thank you all so much, thank you are the face of the post office. - thank you all so much, thank you for being with us and thank you for giving us your reaction today, thank you for travelling all over the place we really appreciated, thank you. if you've got a story to share, do email us at newsnight@bbc.co.uk. it is what we are here for. i'm back tomorrow. goodnight. breaking news from around the world, 24 hours a day. this is bbc news. you're live with bbc news. taiwan will choose a new president this coming weekend, in an election that china has called a choice between peace and war. china considers taiwan part of its own territory and it's been accused of interfering in the vote. but taiwan is a democracy, and its people are free to choose the government they want. our asia correspondent rupert wingfield—hayes reports. there was a time when statues of chang kai shek gree

account— moment, and then scope— post office account with _ moment, and then scope— post office accounthelp desk and reports for this pacific search— desk and reports for this pacific search criteria in order to check the integrity of transactions extracted, too, analyse fault logs from _ extracted, too, analyse fault logs from which the records are maintained to check the integrity of transactions, three, predict witnessed —— may provide witness statements of fact in relation to that arq. the above analyses and witness _ that arq. the above analyses and witness statements will be undertaken in respect of 250 arqs per year— undertaken in respect of 250 arqs per year and fujitsu will provide for the — per year and fujitsu will provide for the attendance at court by the person _ for the attendance at court by the person who has provided a witness statement — person who has provided a witness statement as identified above to -ive statement as identified above to give evidence in support of that witness — give evidence in support of that witness statement the maximum of 100 days per— witnes

right, my role certainly| coming into the post office is to do a number— coming into the post officeffice is to do a number of things, of course it's to speed — a number of things, of course it's to speed up — a number of things, of course it's to speed up as much as we can and as quickly— to speed up as much as we can and as quickly as— to speed up as much as we can and as quickly as we — to speed up as much as we can and as quickly as we can a conversation, that nrust— quickly as we can a conversation, that must be the right start. surely ou must that must be the right start. surely you must be _ that must be the right start. surely you must be telling _ that must be the right start. surely you must be telling the _ that must be the right start. surely you must be telling the inquiry - that must be the right start. surely. you must be telling the inquiry when somebody in the post office knew that remote access to terminals was possible. irate that remote access to terminals was ossible. ~ , , ., i. possible. we will be providing you with all the _ possible. we will be providing you

lee castleton was bankrupted by the post office. case there was nothing wrong with horizon at his branch. so what did he think today? i�*m sure, you know, he means it, i�*m not saying that he doesn�*t, but it�*s about doing things, it�*s about actions. some of the victims want to meet the fujitsu boss to discuss assistance and support. he said he would be happy to, apologising again for his company�*s part in their suffering. emma simpson, bbc news. we can now cross live to varchas patel, his father vipin patel who was prosecuted by the post office in 2011 after they audited him and alleged 3a,000 pounds was missing in december 2010 — after he had already made up a £44,000 shortfall. those figures are extraordinary. it must be difficult for you hearing what was said today by the man from the fujitsu are you able to describe to us what you were being told via the post office and fujitsu at the time? the post office and fu'itsu at the time? , ., , ., .,, time? yes to my father. he was alwa s time? yes to my father. he was always told

you are at the post office in a significant role during | office in a significant role during the groupnificant role during the group litigation, _ office in a significant role during the group litigation, during - the group litigation, during the court _ the group litigation, during the court of appeal _ the group litigation, during the court of appeal proceedings. l court of appeal proceedings. throughout— court of appeal proceedings. throughout this _ court of appeal proceedings. throughout this inquiry - court of appeal proceedings. throughout this inquiry and i court of appeal proceedings. . throughout this inquiry and you didn'i_ throughout this inquiry and you didn't think— throughout this inquiry and you didn't think back— throughout this inquiry and you didn't think back and _ throughout this inquiry and you didn't think back and perhaps . throughout this inquiry and you - didn't think back and perhaps regret having _ didn't think back and perhaps regret having submitted _ didn't think back and perhaps regret having submitted a _ didn't think back and perhaps regret having subm

i had been running the post office, call. i had been running the post office. they _ call.g the post office, they closed _ call. i had been running the post office, they closed the - call. i had been running the post office, they closed the main - call. i had been running the post office, they closed the main one down the road for 20 years and in 2000 i had the horizon system put in and wejust kept 2000 i had the horizon system put in and we just kept being short. up to that point i was audited, not 20, about 17 years, i was audited and everything was fine. and then i kept being short. we were in our 60s, my husband was 67 and he was taking a lump sum out of his pension pot and in the end he couldn't do it any more. so i wasn't brave like all the other postmasters, i took a route where i hid it and i move money around from the shop to the post office for about 18 months, two years, and i knew, i don't know, i can't tell you, i knew i was going to be audited and when they came out ijust to be audited and when they came out i just confessed. to be audited and when they came o

the post office, it scandal. the justice, justice secretary holds crunch talks with judges to look at ways to clear the names of staff who were wrongly accused of theft . at more than 700 staff of theft. at more than 700 staff were convicted, jailed and bankrupt and some took their lives . to date, just 93 lives. to date, just 93 convictions have been overturned and only 30 have finalised compensation , with the compensation, with the government business minister kevin hollinrake says plans to speed up the remaining cases would be announced very shortly . would be announced very shortly. meanwhile, labour has defended the use of fines to tackle school absence rates. that's according to the shadow education secretary who says a labour government would keep the policy in place. speaking at an eventin policy in place. speaking at an event in london, bridget phillipson said parents should not take children out of school for cheaper holidays or for birthday treats . it's after more birthday treats. it's after more tha

much did post office really know in the early- years, how much did post office really know in the earlyears, how much did post officel really know in the early days and how much — really know in the early days and how much did _ really know in the early days and how much did government- really know in the early days and how much did government reallyj really know in the early days and - how much did government really know in the _ how much did government really know in the earty— how much did government really know in the early days— how much did government really know in the early days about _ how much did government really know in the early days about what _ how much did government really know in the early days about what was - in the early days about what was happening — in the early days about what was happening at _ in the early days about what was happening at fujitsu? _ in the early days about what was happening at fujitsu? i- in the early days about what was happening at fujitsu? i think- happening at fujitsu? i think everyone _ happening at fujitsu? i think everyone is— happeni

post office are not doing — with the post office? hand back bonuses and pensions? find think she should have to hand back bonuses and pensions?— think she should have to hand back bonuses and pensions? and so should nick reed, bonuses and pensions? and so should nick reed. the _ bonuses and pensions? and so should nick reed, the current _ bonuses and pensions? and so should nick reed, the current month. - nick reed, the current month. that is unanimous. _ nick reed, the current month. that is unanimous, what _ nick reed, the current month. “i“isgt is unanimous, what do you say? i think i was one of the first people to say paula vennells should hand back her cbe which she has agreed to do. and bonuses? as i say, i think we need to go through due process. i know people with you will not be happy about that but that is the system we run. we do not do trial by media. we run a process, an inquiry and all those answers and sanctions and all those answers and sanctions and enforcement actions can be taken at the end of the inquiry when we kn

to the post office. analysis — up please? to the post office.nstances of concern were _ completed. 27 instances of concern were identified. they have been fully analysed and we can confirm that the _ fully analysed and we can confirm that the locking was caused by contention between the end of day process— contention between the end of day process and our riposte checkpoint being _ process and our riposte checkpoint being written. no transactions or balancing — being written. no transactions or balancing activities were affected. ithink— balancing activities were affected. i think that answers the first points— i think that answers the first points that we were looking at, whether— points that we were looking at, whether there had been a back check of the _ whether there had been a back check of the relevant period. but that is in relation — of the relevant period. but that is in relation to 195 arqs, not subject to data _ in relation to 195 arqs, not subject to data that had been in arq. and that was what _ to data that had been in arq. and tha

we've seen the minutes of a post office board meeting in september �*99 where directors heard of "serious" by april 2000, even the prime minister knows there's something seriously wrong. when we came to office, there was probably no greater shambles than that horizon project. but the post office chose to blame the sub—postmasters, not the software, for cash shortfalls we now know were false. over 15 years, 983 sub—postmasters and postmistresses are convicted of offences from theft to fraud to false accounting, using evidence from horizon. fujitsu witnesses claim horizon�*s information was "reliable" and "robust." some victims go to prison. others were ruined. some take their own lives. we got hold of an audit report in 2011 from consultants ey, warning some it staff have "unrestricted access" to postmasters�* horizon accounts which "may lead to the processing of unauthorised or erroneous transactions" ? something the post office continues to deny for years. in 2013, the board discusses a review by the consultants second sight which finds two bugs in horizon. injuly 2013, a concerned barri

how the post office then chose to use that information in their prosecutions is entirely on the post fujitsu knew and when. you knew that there was glitches in the system. why did you sit back and do absolutely nothing about it? i don't know. i really don't know. and on a personal level, i wish i did know. questions, too, for the ceo of the post office, nick reid, who started in 2019. have you seen any evidence that post office executives misled the courts at any stage? i've seen any evidence, no. have you seen any evidence that post office ministers misled parliament at any stage? no, i haven't. do you believe that the post office prosecuted the innocent knowing the case to be flawed? i sincerely hope not, but i have not had evidence to that effect. but he did admit that it was possible money wrongly taken from subpostmasters could have ended up as part of executives�* pay. jo hamilton was watching it all right behind them. i kind of knew what - they were going to say. but he did say he was going to cough up. yeah, yeah, yeah. ish. yeah. so that's good news. it's good news for the ta

when you take on a sub—post office. you are — office.iness. as happened in my case, when _ business. as happened in my case, when they— business. as happened in my case, when they felt _ business. as happened in my case, when they fell out _ business. as happened in my case, when they fell out with _ business. as happened in my case, when they fell out with me, - business. as happened in my case, when they fell out with me, they i when they fell out with me, they walked _ when they fell out with me, they walked off— when they fell out with me, they walked off with _ when they fell out with me, they walked off with that _ when they fell out with me, they walked off with that amount - when they fell out with me, they walked off with that amount of. walked off with that amount of money — walked off with that amount of money i— walked off with that amount of money. ithink— walked off with that amount of money. i think a _ walked off with that amount of money. i think a lot— walked off with that amount of money. i think a lot of- walked off w

, of the convicted post office, uh, office subpostmasters .uh, office subpostmasters. now, kevin hollinrake, who's . the uh, kevin hollinrake, who's. the uh, the post office minister, he said there will be an unknown number of people who were in that should be convicted. that who should be convicted. but the government's going to get a piece of get everyone to sign a piece of paper i did not take any paper to say, i did not take any money illegally. and if it's found event they found after the event that they did money illegally, found after the event that they did they money illegally, found after the event that they did they cannoney illegally, found after the event that they did they can be 1ey illegally, found after the event that they did they can be prosecutedr, found after the event that they did they can be prosecuted for then they can be prosecuted for fraud. the kind fraud. so that's the kind of cover securing and cover for securing and protecting public money. cover for securing and protectinitially.ic money. cover for securing and