reality with the decisions of the express newspapers decided to take and extract themselves from the ppc. that is one reason. and secondly, that if you leave it to self-regulation, we end up with this absurd situation where they are judge and jury in their own cause. i mean, as has become clear in the course of this, i do have very high respect for paul dayco and i have known him for a very long time, and so on, and none of that is soft soap. but i simply do not believe that anybody could or should be placed in the position of adjudication which he and senior colleagues have over the standards of the press when the adjudication is taking place of them. that seems to me to defy all known principles of justice. so in the moment that you accept that proposition that i have made, you then have got to accept that this body will have to externally to be imposed, because there is no other way to do it, and the press won't be able to do it themselves, and i believe they should calm down about the effects of the autonomy on politicians and ministers and have regards to all of the other institutio

. >> and the lord chairman of the ppc at the moment, correct? >> yes. and lord hunt put it this way, oh, well, if you introduce legislation then members of both the house of commons and the house of lords will do their level best to really try to emasculate the press, and that is my summary and not his words. and they will want to use the opportunity to impact on the freedom of speech and expression and the press which i have constantly espoused. another witness said, well, i'd like to know who these people are, and lord wakem said, well, there are certainly people like that, and if you have got some sense of that, i'd be interested to know it. >> well, i mean, that could be people in the house of commons and the house of lords afterall, a number of getting up for 1,400, and it may have this view that their business is to emasculate the press. i have yet to meet them, it has to be said, and i don't believe they have ever put their views on record, and in any case, i'm afraid that i think that the prediction is completely unfounded. what we are talking a